IgnorantiaNescia wrote:Could you please provide a full-context quote of his words, so that we can discuss it here? I'm open to changing my mind on this, even though I'm inclined to give Hoffmann the benefit of doubt.
Ah yes. The benefit of the doubt. That thing that some get and others don't.
Actually, I'm not particularly interested in us agreeing or disagreeing to what degree Hoffman's view has hardened or softened, but if you can get from this.....
With due regard to the complexity of evidence surrounding Christian origins—a subject that has been complicated, in a good way, rather than solved by the discoveries of modern scholarship—I no longer believe it is possible to answer the “historicity question. “ No quantum of material discovered since the1940’s, in the absence of canonical material would support the existence of an historical founder. No material regarded as canonical and no church doctrine built upon it in the history of the church would cause us to deny it. Whether the New Testament runs from Christ to Jesus or Jesus to Christ is not a question we can answer.http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/hoffman1044.shtml......to recent use of the word 'nutters', by reading the nuances of the context, then good luck with that. I'm not especially convinced, no personal offense intended, that you have a sufficiently open mind. But then, that's my prerogative, to say that to both sides. Ah, the benefits of a rational, neutral position.
IgnorantiaNescia wrote:As you know, I admitted that it is possible for it to have such meaning, but my position is that such judgments should be based on the evidence. There are limits to the weight of such analyses - especially in the case of a small corpus - but I think there is good reason to suppose that Paul conformed to common usage, especially since that formula is also used in the LXX. Whereas Paul indeed had his own usage, how likely is it he would mean something rather different from the standard meaning (biological kinship) if there isn't evidence of specialised Christian jargon here?
If the words 'standard' or 'formula' here were empirical or scientific, or just plain...tangible, I might agree more, but they are so not that. And that is what Cito is saying. Personally, I can't think of a good reason to assume that it's likely we can work out 'what Paul meant', given his arguably extraordinary reliance on brother as non-sibling (I don't think this can be just waived away by looking elsewhere) and the non-flagging up of any exception being made in the verses which HJers focus upon.
IgnorantiaNescia wrote: I hope we can agree that the default reading of "James, the brother of the Lord" is much more parsimonious.
We can agree on that. OTOH, the sibling take on 1 Cor 9:5 seems to be unparsimonius. It's a close call. One can't read one without the other.
IgnorantiaNescia wrote:As for the brothers as witnesses, he does for James, it's in 1 Corintihians 15: 7: "Then he appeared to James, then to all apostles." But I am not sure I understand this argument, for should Paul have believed that all brother witnessed a "resurrected" Jesus?
I didn't mean James. I meant brothers plural.
Are you saying that the supposed eminent, with their arguably implied missionary status siblings didn't see their risen brother, though 500 lesser blokes did? One wonders what could have convinced them. One wonders what they might have preached. Parsimony gone on holiday has it?
IgnorantiaNescia wrote:Sound? Yes. Mean? No. First, the part from Galatians is incomplete, the full title reads "Iakobon ton adelphon tou kuriou" which means "James (Iakobon, noun in accusative case) the brother (ton adelphon, article and noun in accusative case) of the Lord (tou kuriou, article and noun in genitive case)", (which makes it sound a little more dissimilar, but that isn't the crucial point). The issue is that the structure is different, "Titon (Titus, noun in accusative case) ton adelphon ([the] brother, article and noun in accusative case) mou (my, first person possessive personal pronoun)", so it doesn't conform to the formula "X, the brother of Y" that's under debate - rather it's simply a way of saying "X, my brother" because
mou is just the Greek way of saying "my". It is not debated that the latter formula can refer to fictive kinship.
I need further clarification on this. Can't Galatians read as 'the lord's brother' just as 2 Cor 2:13 reads 'my brother'? The linguistic structure is identical, it seems to me. And it appears to me that, for example, the later gospels (say, Matthew 12:49) give us every reason to suppose, in addition to Paul's habitual usage, that early Christians might easily have considered themselves both brothers of each other and of Jesus.