Historical Jesus

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43281  Postby RealityRules » Jun 14, 2021 12:06 am

RealityRules wrote:
Raphael Lataster (2014), The Fourth Quest: A Critical Analysis of the Recent Literature on Jesus’ (a)Historicity, Literature Aesthetics, 24 (1): pp.1-28

Abstract

"There has been some recent scholarly discussion on the reasonableness of questioning Jesus’ historicity. While generally avoiding the question, this analysis seeks to compare the methods of those who assert Jesus’ historical existence (historicists), and those who are less certain (mythicists or agnostics). Examples were taken from four recent authors on the topic. It was found that the [then] recent defences of historicity by Bart Ehrman [Did Jesus Exist?, 2012] and Maurice Casey [Jesus: Evidence and Argument Or Mythicist Myths?, 2014] lack lucid and competent methodologies; rely on highly questionable documents; and further make use of sources that no longer exist, if they ever did. They also seemed polemical, were occasionally vulgar, and often resorted to cavilling, focussing on tangential arguments of the more amateurish mythicists ..."


The rest of the abstract:

    My own [ie. Lataster's] case for agnosticism is largely grounded in the skepticism over the relevant sources necessitated by sound historical approaches, and has been well received by critical scholars. Richard Carrier’s case for outright mythicism lays out a clear and transparent historical method, incorporating much relevant background knowledge that many mainstream scholars would be largely ignorant of. Despite arguing for the more controversial hypotheses, these more sceptical scholars are employing superior methods.


The Case for Jesus’ Historicity: Bart Ehrman

"The first of the [then] recent [ie. pre-2014] books arguing for Jesus’ historicity, Ehrman’s Did Jesus Exist? acknowledges that the Christ of Faith is a myth, and seeks to demonstrate the reality of 'the Historical Jesus'. Parts II (‘The Mythicists’ Claims’) and III (‘Who Was the Historical Jesus?’) of the book can be overlooked as they proceed from the assumption of Jesus’ historicity. It is in Part I, ‘Evidence for the Historical Jesus’, where Ehrman’s positive case for Jesus’ historicity is presented. Over five chapters, Ehrman acknowledges that the available sources are problematic, yet somehow finds them useful regarding the Historical Jesus, and appeals to hypothetical 'sources' supposedly pre-dating the Gospels – which supposedly provide certainty over Jesus’ historical existence – and the Pauline Epistles.

"Ehrman...clarifies that historians would prefer numerous, contemporary, detailed, and somewhat disinterested sources, which corroborate others’ accounts without collaboration having taking place. This is effectively a description of precisely what is lacking in the case for Jesus. In what could be mistaken as a case for Jesus agnosticism, Ehrman then admits that there is no physical evidence for Jesus, there are no mentions of him by first-century Greek or Roman authors, and agrees that no contemporary accounts are available. Focussing on the non-Christian sources that are available, Ehrman generally dismisses the testimonies of Pliny the Younger, Suetonius and Tacitus. Likewise dismissing the disputed Talmudic references to Jesus, Ehrman somewhat surprisingly finds the Josephean references to Jesus inconclusive, as they would be derivative if genuine (citing arguments that suggest they had in fact been forged)."

https://www.academia.edu/26664790/The_F ... istoricity
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43282  Postby proudfootz » Jun 14, 2021 3:53 pm

RealityRules wrote:
RealityRules wrote:
Raphael Lataster (2014), The Fourth Quest: A Critical Analysis of the Recent Literature on Jesus’ (a)Historicity, Literature Aesthetics, 24 (1): pp.1-28

Abstract

"There has been some recent scholarly discussion on the reasonableness of questioning Jesus’ historicity. While generally avoiding the question, this analysis seeks to compare the methods of those who assert Jesus’ historical existence (historicists), and those who are less certain (mythicists or agnostics). Examples were taken from four recent authors on the topic. It was found that the [then] recent defences of historicity by Bart Ehrman [Did Jesus Exist?, 2012] and Maurice Casey [Jesus: Evidence and Argument Or Mythicist Myths?, 2014] lack lucid and competent methodologies; rely on highly questionable documents; and further make use of sources that no longer exist, if they ever did. They also seemed polemical, were occasionally vulgar, and often resorted to cavilling, focussing on tangential arguments of the more amateurish mythicists ..."


The rest of the abstract:

    My own [ie. Lataster's] case for agnosticism is largely grounded in the skepticism over the relevant sources necessitated by sound historical approaches, and has been well received by critical scholars. Richard Carrier’s case for outright mythicism lays out a clear and transparent historical method, incorporating much relevant background knowledge that many mainstream scholars would be largely ignorant of. Despite arguing for the more controversial hypotheses, these more sceptical scholars are employing superior methods.


The Case for Jesus’ Historicity: Bart Ehrman

"The first of the [then] recent [ie. pre-2014] books arguing for Jesus’ historicity, Ehrman’s Did Jesus Exist? acknowledges that the Christ of Faith is a myth, and seeks to demonstrate the reality of 'the Historical Jesus'. Parts II (‘The Mythicists’ Claims’) and III (‘Who Was the Historical Jesus?’) of the book can be overlooked as they proceed from the assumption of Jesus’ historicity. It is in Part I, ‘Evidence for the Historical Jesus’, where Ehrman’s positive case for Jesus’ historicity is presented. Over five chapters, Ehrman acknowledges that the available sources are problematic, yet somehow finds them useful regarding the Historical Jesus, and appeals to hypothetical 'sources' supposedly pre-dating the Gospels – which supposedly provide certainty over Jesus’ historical existence – and the Pauline Epistles.

"Ehrman...clarifies that historians would prefer numerous, contemporary, detailed, and somewhat disinterested sources, which corroborate others’ accounts without collaboration having taking place. This is effectively a description of precisely what is lacking in the case for Jesus. In what could be mistaken as a case for Jesus agnosticism, Ehrman then admits that there is no physical evidence for Jesus, there are no mentions of him by first-century Greek or Roman authors, and agrees that no contemporary accounts are available. Focussing on the non-Christian sources that are available, Ehrman generally dismisses the testimonies of Pliny the Younger, Suetonius and Tacitus. Likewise dismissing the disputed Talmudic references to Jesus, Ehrman somewhat surprisingly finds the Josephean references to Jesus inconclusive, as they would be derivative if genuine (citing arguments that suggest they had in fact been forged)."

https://www.academia.edu/26664790/The_F ... istoricity


If these hypothetical sources actually existed they surely would help the HJ hypothesis.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43283  Postby dogsgod » Jun 19, 2021 4:53 am

Stein wrote:Good description here of what typifies conspiracy theorists like the mythers --

"[P]artisan bloggers .... reinforce their mutual preconceptions by echoing them back and forth, referencing each other, accepting only what evidence confirms their beliefs and ignoring the rest (when they reference evidence at all.) This is the modus oper[a]ndi of dogmatists, and it can become a prison which is difficult [to] escape"
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... st12586443

Stein
The question of the OP asks if anyone here has read the book; The Jesus Puzzle, subtitled; did Christianity begin with a mythical Christ?

Have you read it? I ask because I want to know your opinion of the book itself and what specifically in the book makes you dismiss it.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43284  Postby proudfootz » Jun 19, 2021 7:41 pm

dogsgod wrote:The question of the OP asks if anyone here has read the book; The Jesus Puzzle, subtitled; did Christianity begin with a mythical Christ?

Have you read it? I ask because I want to know your opinion of the book itself and what specifically in the book makes you dismiss it.


I read The Jesus Puzzle site on line, and it was interesting.

I own a copy of Jesus: Neither God Nor Man - The Case for a Mythical Jesus by the same author. I find it useful as it comprehensively covers just about all the issues involved. In my opinion Doherty makes a pretty good case.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Prophecy

#43285  Postby RealityRules » Jun 24, 2021 7:03 am

Prophecy is a recurring theme in the Old and New Testaments.

1 Kings 22 is where all the king’s prophets gave patriotic prophecies (but they didn't go well).

In the New Testament prophecy is revered but often in a qualified way

1 Corinthians 13:9 has
“ For we know in part and we prophesy in part” (YLT).


1 Corinthians 14:29—32 suggests prophecy is moderated -

Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.


That seems to be saying, "The spirits of [old] prophets are subject to the control of [new, present day] 'prophets'."

Later in 1 Cor 14, -

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.
35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


Yet 1 Cor 14:39

Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.


1 Thessalonians 5:20-21 (in context of preceding and succeeding verses)

18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not treat prophecies with contempt 21 but test them all; hold on to what is good,
22 reject every kind of evil.

23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Acts 2:17 has
‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.'


In Revelation 19:10 the spirit [or 'essence'] of prophecy' is said to give a clear witness or testimony for Jesus: the author of the book of Revelation falls at the feet of an angel who had spoken to him:
“Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, ‘You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.’

For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy” (ESV).
.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43286  Postby dogsgod » Jun 24, 2021 7:04 pm

proudfootz wrote:
dogsgod wrote:The question of the OP asks if anyone here has read the book; The Jesus Puzzle, subtitled; did Christianity begin with a mythical Christ?

Have you read it? I ask because I want to know your opinion of the book itself and what specifically in the book makes you dismiss it.


I read The Jesus Puzzle site on line, and it was interesting.

I own a copy of Jesus: Neither God Nor Man - The Case for a Mythical Jesus by the same author. I find it useful as it comprehensively covers just about all the issues involved. In my opinion Doherty makes a pretty good case.
I wonder if the naysayers on this thread have an idea as to the case Doherty has presented in his books.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43287  Postby Stein » Jun 27, 2021 12:55 pm

RealityRules wrote:
Stein wrote:... conspiracy theorists like the mythers --

    Mythicism is NOT a conspiracy theory

IS.

Stein
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43288  Postby Stein » Jun 27, 2021 1:08 pm

dogsgod wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
dogsgod wrote:The question of the OP asks if anyone here has read the book; The Jesus Puzzle, subtitled; did Christianity begin with a mythical Christ?

Have you read it? I ask because I want to know your opinion of the book itself and what specifically in the book makes you dismiss it.


I read The Jesus Puzzle site on line, and it was interesting.

I own a copy of Jesus: Neither God Nor Man - The Case for a Mythical Jesus by the same author. I find it useful as it comprehensively covers just about all the issues involved. In my opinion Doherty makes a pretty good case.

I wonder if the naysayers on this thread have an idea as to the case Doherty has presented in his books.


LOLOLOLOL!!!!! On the first page of this thread, dummkopf:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/chris ... html#p4642

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Re: Historical Jesus

#43289  Postby dogsgod » Jun 27, 2021 7:45 pm

Stein wrote:

LOLOLOLOL!!!!! On the first page of this thread, dummkopf:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/chris ... html#p4642

Stein

Slinging ad homs, and referencing an internet hack as a source that has no credentials, that all you got? If one reads The Jesus Puzzle for themselves they would realize how obtuse your sources' response is. It doesn't warrant responding to such drivel again.

Most here acknowledge the varied competing theories but not too many of us are willing to declare with certainty that we know how Christianity started, that's your MO. Theologians can't agree on who Jesus was but declare that he definitely was, the absurdity of that alone is lost on you.

FYI, it appears that your so called "mythicism" is as old as The New Testament itself; 2John 1:7 I say this because many deceivers have gone out into the world. They deny that Jesus Christ came in a real body. Such a person is a deceiver and an antichrist. New Living Translation
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43290  Postby dogsgod » Jun 28, 2021 7:00 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
dogsgod wrote:
That's the point, it doesn't matter, some of us are just here for an argument.


No you're not!

HAHA, touché
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43291  Postby dogsgod » Jun 29, 2021 6:55 am

james1v wrote:
dogsgod wrote:

Stein, I get the impression from reading your posts that those that do not believe that Jesus came down to earth in the flesh are damned to Hell.


It has always been so.....
Yes, it's kind of a central tenet of the religion.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43292  Postby dogsgod » Jun 30, 2021 4:48 am

Stein wrote:
RealityRules wrote:
Stein wrote:... conspiracy theorists like the mythers --

    Mythicism is NOT a conspiracy theory

IS.

Stein

What is a conspiracy theory is the story about the Son of God.
Where an historical Jesus comes in to this or not is not certain, try as you might.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43293  Postby dogsgod » Jun 30, 2021 5:22 am

dogsgod wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
dogsgod wrote:
That's the point, it doesn't matter, some of us are just here for an argument.


No you're not!

HAHA, touché
I meant to say that that was one of the finer arguments so far.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43294  Postby proudfootz » Jun 30, 2021 8:29 pm

dogsgod wrote:
Stein wrote:

LOLOLOLOL!!!!! On the first page of this thread, dummkopf:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/chris ... html#p4642

Stein

Slinging ad homs, and referencing an internet hack as a source that has no credentials, that all you got? If one reads The Jesus Puzzle for themselves they would realize how obtuse your sources' response is. It doesn't warrant responding to such drivel again.


The poster referenced doesn't seem to have been able acknowledge that Doherty grapples with all the proof-texts TO naively cites (right down to misrepresenting the notorious 'brother of the Lord' sentence fragment as 'Jesus had a earthly physical brother called James'). Unless someone can demonstrate an understanding of Doherty's arguments concerning these texts it can hardly be claimed they understand the argument as a whole.

Most here acknowledge the varied competing theories but not too many of us are willing to declare with certainty that we know how Christianity started, that's your MO. Theologians can't agree on who Jesus was but declare that he definitely was, the absurdity of that alone is lost on you.

FYI, it appears that your so called "mythicism" is as old as The New Testament itself; 2John 1:7 I say this because many deceivers have gone out into the world. They deny that Jesus Christ came in a real body. Such a person is a deceiver and an antichrist. New Living Translation


There does seem to be surviving evidence of christianities that never required a failed and obscure street preacher. In my view, some of the verses trotted out to prove Jesus was a man before he became a god seem like strained rebuttals of competing 'mythicist' ideas:

"No, Jesus was a flesh and blood man!" - Who's saying he wasn't?
"No, he was born of a woman!" - As opposed to what?
"Jesus had a human nature!" - Who says he didn't?

:coffee:

Methinks they protest too much.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43295  Postby dogsgod » Jul 01, 2021 4:46 pm

proudfootz wrote:

The poster referenced doesn't seem to have been able acknowledge that Doherty grapples with all the proof-texts TO naively cites (right down to misrepresenting the notorious 'brother of the Lord' sentence fragment as 'Jesus had a earthly physical brother called James'). Unless someone can demonstrate an understanding of Doherty's arguments concerning these texts it can hardly be claimed they understand the argument as a whole.


Yes, the Steins out there that haven't read The Jesus Puzzle but post here anyways don't even know what they are opposed to. How can one know what they are arguing for if they don't know the arguments of their opponent? We could be
dealing with trolls.



There does seem to be surviving evidence of christianities that never required a failed and obscure street preacher. In my view, some of the verses trotted out to prove Jesus was a man before he became a god seem like strained rebuttals of competing 'mythicist' ideas:

"No, Jesus was a flesh and blood man!" - Who's saying he wasn't?
"No, he was born of a woman!" - As opposed to what?
"Jesus had a human nature!" - Who says he didn't?

:coffee:

Methinks they protest too much.
It could be said that Christianity was born out of the OT with the help of the likes of Paul, other epistle writers and self proclaimed apostles.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43296  Postby dogsgod » Jul 03, 2021 6:03 am

Dude, He was born of a woman, and not to mention, He was a redeemer of mankind.

No way.

Dude, seriously.
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43297  Postby Leucius Charinus » Jul 04, 2021 12:34 pm

SUNDAY SERMON on the GOSPEL


A HOLY MAN IS BORN:

* A Holy Man arose in antiquity and throughout his life claimed to be guided by the divine spirit.
* He appeared in the midst of a centralised monotheistic religious national state.
* He influenced many people, he preached and discussed salvation, he performed miracles.
* Abut him it was written - "He teaches the word of the Living Gospel for Eye and Ear, and he preaches the fruit of righteousness"


HE FOUNDED A CHURCH, COMMISSIONED HIS APOSTLES AS MISSIONARIES

* He founded a new religious cult related to the salvation of mankind within the old monotheistic national state.
* He and his teaching attracted apostles and followers.
* He commissioned apostles to establish churches in all the lands.
* The missionary activity of his apostles went into the Roman Empire and beyond.


HOLY WRITINGS ARE COMPOSED & PRESERVED

* A "Canon" of Holy Writings was assembled - preserved as a Gospel of “Living Teachings".
* Records of his "Gospel" and sayings - "logoi" - were gathered and collected.
* The Apostles wrote epistles (some of which are today extant) between the churches.
* Fragments of writings discovered in Egypt during 20th century - date to antiquity.


HE WAS CRUCIFIED, APOSTLES & CULT PERSECUTED

* He was persecuted in his final years by the state religion and the Romans.
* By some accounts he was crucified in the capital city, and his apostles persecuted.
* Their churches were destroyed, their writings burnt, and apostles were executed by the rulers of the age.
* Records are extant for Roman imperial persecution of the cult - particularly by Diocletian.


THE RISE OF CONSTANTINE & NICENE ORTHODOXY

* His churches existed in Rome when Constantine conquered the city 312 CE.
* Schismatic sects appeared after the Nicene Council and some sects preserved "The Gospel of Peter".
* The writings of these schismatic sects were prohibited and burnt by Christian orthodoxy.


THE TRIUMPH OF NICENE ORTHODOXY

* These sects were the subject of heresiogical narratives by Christian orthodoxy.
* These sects were finally condemned and outlawed by the Emperor Theodosius c.381 CE.
* Their sectarian writings were prohibited and were burnt by Christian orthodoxy into the 5th century and beyond.
* The sects finally left the Roman empire and set out via Persia down the silk road to the east and China.


HISTORY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, CHRISTIANS ORIGINS & THE CHURCH

* Yes, in case you were wondering, all the above data refers to Mani and the Manichaeans.


QUESTION FOR THE CONGREGATION


* Could Eusebius - the only historian of the early Christians and their church - have modelled Jesus and the Christians on Mani and the Manichaeans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_(prophet)
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

Emperor Julian (362 CE)
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43298  Postby RealityRules » Jul 08, 2021 7:45 am

The Global Center for Religious Research (GCRR) is hosting the 2021 International eConference on the Historical Jesus

July 24–25 ie. in just over two weeks : 9:00AM - 10:30PM each day

a Zoom Webinar

https://www.gcrr.org/historicaljesusconference

The Schedule https://www.gcrr.org/schedule/historica ... july-24-25
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43299  Postby Hermit » Jul 08, 2021 9:20 am

RealityRules wrote:The Global Center for Religious Research (GCRR) is hosting the 2021 International eConference on the Historical Jesus

July 24–25 ie. in just over two weeks : 9:00AM - 10:30PM each day

a Zoom Webinar

https://www.gcrr.org/historicaljesusconference

The Schedule https://www.gcrr.org/schedule/historica ... july-24-25

Tough schedule. 7 1½ hour sessions each day with only ½ hour breaks between them. Sheesh. There'd have to be refreshments. Will there be any Kool-Aid provided for the gaslighting, bullshitting fake scholars and cranks?
God is the mysterious veil under which we hide our ignorance of the cause. - Léo Errera


God created the universe
God just exists
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Re: Historical Jesus

#43300  Postby RealityRules » Jul 08, 2021 10:46 am

Hermit wrote: Will there be any Kool-Aid provided for the gaslighting, bullshitting fake scholars and cranks?

    Good gaslighting, dude!

    So, you're providing the refreshments? None of your Kool-Aid, though. Thanks.
Last edited by RealityRules on Jul 08, 2021 12:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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