How many Christians are here in this “Christianity” forum?

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

Moderators: Blip, DarthHelmet86

Re: How many Christians are here in this “Christianity” forum?

#141  Postby Cody » Dec 18, 2014 10:55 am

"Cody, what is the choice you referred to, please?" ( Fallible)

The choice I was referring to is whether to be a Christian or not, whether to be satisfied with faith instead of proof?

Sorry to have been so long in answering your question but I didn't expect the avalanche of posts which I had to answer!!
User avatar
Cody
 
Posts: 1864

Country: Scotland
Scotland (ss)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: How many Christians are here in this “Christianity” forum?

#142  Postby Fallible » Dec 18, 2014 2:34 pm

No problem. I'm not sure it's as simple as choosing though. I mean I didn't choose to be an atheist, it's just that I'm not able to believe in a God.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
User avatar
Fallible
RS Donator
 
Name: Alice Pooper
Posts: 50128
Age: 47
Female

Country: Engerland na na
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: How many Christians are here in this “Christianity” forum?

#143  Postby John Platko » Dec 18, 2014 4:04 pm

Cody wrote:@John Platko. In answer to your question re what I call spirit, I don't know that it exists in reality so it doesn't matter what it is called.


That's interesting. I don't know that unicorns exist in reality but I find it handy that I have a name to identify them by if they show up in my dreams.



What do you think spirit actually is?


Well I think Ven. Kwan Tam Woo seems to be on track in helping to describe what I think spirit actual is. Here's our interaction:


Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
John Platko wrote:
Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:

Perhaps "informational metadynamic"?


As in: Metadynamics has been informally described as "filling the free energy wells with computational sand"?

from:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metadynamics

"Computational sand" does have a nice religious feel to it- we might be able to work that.


Metadynamic in the sense of meta- (as in second-order) and -dynamic (as in a process characterised by activity).


hmmm

From:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta

Meta (from the Greek preposition and prefix meta- (μετά-) meaning "after", or "beyond") is a prefix used in English to indicate a concept which is an abstraction from another concept, used to complete or add to the latter.


Do we need the informational part?

How about: One's spirit is their capacity of after activity (or beyond activity). That is, their capacity of activity that does not come directly from their corporal being.
I like to imagine ...
User avatar
John Platko
 
Name: John Platko
Posts: 9411
Male

Country: US
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: How many Christians are here in this “Christianity” forum?

#144  Postby Thommo » Dec 18, 2014 4:09 pm

Cody wrote:To be a Christian you have to believe Jesus was the son of God who was crucified to save our sins.
If people do not accept this, then they are not Christians.
I don't think Humanists accept it so how can someone be both??


This is possible in a couple of ways:-

(i) People who regard Christians not as those who regard Jesus as Divine, but as those who follow his teachings and take no particular stance on his divinity.
(ii) Those humanists who do accept Jesus as divine - because although humanism does not require belief in the divinity of Jesus, it does not necessarily preclude it.
User avatar
Thommo
 
Posts: 26669

Print view this post

Re: How many Christians are here in this “Christianity” forum?

#145  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Dec 18, 2014 7:37 pm

Humanists can accept that Jesus was the son of god. It's just a matter of compartmentalisation.
Rachel Bronwyn
 
Name: a certain type of girl
Posts: 13038
Age: 31
Female

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: How many Christians are here in this “Christianity” forum?

#146  Postby willhud9 » Dec 18, 2014 8:01 pm

The original humanists were Christian scholars who wanted to shift away from the scholasticism of the Middle Ages and pursue more fields rather than rely on fideism to address them. Instead of relying on faith that God is the creator, humanist scholars actually sought to explore the earth/universe.

Humanism simply a philosophical stance (not a scientific stance) that humans have value and agency. Before humanism it was held in the Western and Muslim world that while humans had free-will, human actions were doomed to failure due to a sinful nature of humans and that the only agency of value was that of God. Early humanists simply said that both God and humans are important.

Petrarch believed that it was important to study the Classics e.g. Aristotle, Socrates, etc. as well as Augustine, Aquinas, and the Bible. He believed that the works of Antiquity held much wisdom. Renaissance humanism was not anti-Christian, despite fringe scholars trying to say otherwise.

http://faculty.uml.edu/CulturalStudies/Italian_Renaissance/8_9_c.htm

Secular does not mean against the church. It means apart from the church. A secularlist can be a staunch religious person and still believe that there exists a division between the affairs of the church and other fields such as science, history, philosophy, etc.

A recent movement called Secular Humanism has many adherants that are humanists i.e. they believe humans have value and agency, but they reject all supernatural and religious dogma. But they do not have exclusive rights on what is and is not humanism.

There are Christian humanists. Unitarianism is generally regarded as a religious humanism.

People like Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Flannery O'Connor were avidly religious and yet were very much humanists and cared about the value of humans and people despite their belief that Jesus was the son of God. No compartmentalization needed for either of them.

Humanism is just as wide a branch as most philosophical fields and like philosophy can be adapted to fit other religious/philosophical views to create unique hybrids. Much like Christian atheists exist Christian humanists exist and make rational sense.
Fear is a choice you embrace
Your only truth
Tribal poetry
Witchcraft filling your void
Lust for fantasy
Male necrocracy
Every child worthy of a better tale
User avatar
willhud9
 
Name: William
Posts: 19271
Age: 28
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: How many Christians are here in this “Christianity” forum?

#147  Postby The_Metatron » Dec 18, 2014 8:29 pm

"Christian atheists"

Maximum oxymoron.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
I AM Skepdickus!

Check out Hack's blog, too. He writes good.
User avatar
The_Metatron
Moderator
 
Name: Jesse
Posts: 20674
Age: 56
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: How many Christians are here in this “Christianity” forum?

#148  Postby willhud9 » Dec 18, 2014 8:48 pm

The_Metatron wrote:"Christian atheists"

Maximum oxymoron.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Christian atheism is a theological position in which the belief in the God of Christianity is rejected or absent but the moral teachings of Jesus are followed.

~Wiki

Not really an oxymoron. Much like atheists can be subscribers to any number of philosophical schools a Christian atheist believes that Jesus' teachings are part of a philosophical school. Jesus is not God, but his teachings and life are inspiring and are a good guideline to be followed.

You can find atheists who do the same thing for Nietzsche and hold his philosophy as the best philosophy. There is no supernatural element involved with either. It is a philosophical element.
Fear is a choice you embrace
Your only truth
Tribal poetry
Witchcraft filling your void
Lust for fantasy
Male necrocracy
Every child worthy of a better tale
User avatar
willhud9
 
Name: William
Posts: 19271
Age: 28
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: How many Christians are here in this “Christianity” forum?

#149  Postby Cody » Dec 18, 2014 9:49 pm

@ Fallible. Well, I do think you made a choice probably as a result of the lack of evidence of God's existence.
User avatar
Cody
 
Posts: 1864

Country: Scotland
Scotland (ss)
Print view this post

Re: How many Christians are here in this “Christianity” forum?

#150  Postby Cody » Dec 18, 2014 9:59 pm

@ John Platko. You've chosen a perfect comparison there---unicorns and spirits. They have something in common:they are both mythical to me and will remain so unless there is convincing evidence that they are real.
User avatar
Cody
 
Posts: 1864

Country: Scotland
Scotland (ss)
Print view this post

Re: How many Christians are here in this “Christianity” forum?

#151  Postby Cody » Dec 18, 2014 10:05 pm

@John Platko. My answer to the question re what spirit is: as far as I know, it is a term used to describe the part of us which lives on after physical death. The problem is we don't really know if there is such a thing.
User avatar
Cody
 
Posts: 1864

Country: Scotland
Scotland (ss)
Print view this post

Re: How many Christians are here in this “Christianity” forum?

#152  Postby Fallible » Dec 18, 2014 10:14 pm

Cody wrote:@ Fallible. Well, I do think you made a choice probably as a result of the lack of evidence of God's existence.


No offence, but it doesn't matter at all what you think, only what you can demonstrate. You cannot demonstrate that I made a choice. I was raised without religion, and as a result I never believed. I didn't choose that. I had no say. But even now that I do have a say, I cannot simply decide that lack of evidence is not important and that I will now be a Christian. Nor can a Christian just suddenly decide that they will no longer believe. For them, either lack of evidence is not an issue or they don't believe there is no evidence. Whichever it is, they cannot be said to have made a real choice between being a Christian or an atheist. If you disagree, then you should be able to become a believer right now.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
User avatar
Fallible
RS Donator
 
Name: Alice Pooper
Posts: 50128
Age: 47
Female

Country: Engerland na na
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: How many Christians are here in this “Christianity” forum?

#153  Postby Fallible » Dec 18, 2014 10:17 pm

Cody wrote:@ John Platko. You've chosen a perfect comparison there---unicorns and spirits. They have something in common:they are both mythical to me and will remain so unless there is convincing evidence that they are real.


At which point you will have no choice but to accept they are. Like how you have no choice but to not believe in them now.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
User avatar
Fallible
RS Donator
 
Name: Alice Pooper
Posts: 50128
Age: 47
Female

Country: Engerland na na
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: How many Christians are here in this “Christianity” forum?

#154  Postby Cody » Dec 18, 2014 10:20 pm

@wilhud9. I don't think real humanists believe in the afterlife and how can you be a Christian if you don't?
Thanks for your long post but I don't accept the thinking behind it. It seems to me that the people to whom you refer are neither one thing nor another and are therefore in a state of flux. They need to make up their minds what they believe .

I am aware of what "secular " means. I don't think I suggested anywhere that it means "against the church".
User avatar
Cody
 
Posts: 1864

Country: Scotland
Scotland (ss)
Print view this post

Re: How many Christians are here in this “Christianity” forum?

#155  Postby Cody » Dec 18, 2014 10:38 pm

@Fallible. I have tried to demonstrate here that what Christians believe is false. I have given reasons for this. Some people will agree with me while others will not.
"It doesn't matter what you think" (Fallible)
Of course thought matters. Thought comes first, followed by decision/choice/action etc.
In a discussion such as this, thought is mandatory.
If you say you made no choices, I accept that but I certainly did choose, after much thought, to reject religion.
User avatar
Cody
 
Posts: 1864

Country: Scotland
Scotland (ss)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: How many Christians are here in this “Christianity” forum?

#156  Postby willhud9 » Dec 18, 2014 11:36 pm

Cody wrote:@wilhud9. I don't think real humanists believe in the afterlife and how can you be a Christian if you don't?


This is a No True Scotsman fallacy. You have a citation for what a "real" humanist is?

Thanks for your long post but I don't accept the thinking behind it. It seems to me that the people to whom you refer are neither one thing nor another and are therefore in a state of flux. They need to make up their minds what they believe .


Or rather that instead of fallacious generalizations and narrow-minded definitions of certain worldviews, there exists a wide spectrum of beliefs and non-beliefs that people world-over take part in. The people to whom I refer are not in a state of flux and are firm in their beliefs.

I am aware of what "secular " means. I don't think I suggested anywhere that it means "against the church".


No, but what you call a "real" humanist is actually an adherent to the philosophy of "secular humanism" which is a subbranch of humanism in general. There are some people who erroneously hold the position that secular humanism is the only humanism and that is simply not true.
Fear is a choice you embrace
Your only truth
Tribal poetry
Witchcraft filling your void
Lust for fantasy
Male necrocracy
Every child worthy of a better tale
User avatar
willhud9
 
Name: William
Posts: 19271
Age: 28
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: How many Christians are here in this “Christianity” forum?

#157  Postby archibald » Dec 18, 2014 11:42 pm

willhud9 wrote:

Christian atheism is a theological position in which the belief in the God of Christianity is rejected or absent but the moral teachings of Jesus are followed.

~Wiki

Not really an oxymoron. Much like atheists can be subscribers to any number of philosophical schools a Christian atheist believes that Jesus' teachings are part of a philosophical school. Jesus is not God, but his teachings and life are inspiring and are a good guideline to be followed.

You can find atheists who do the same thing for Nietzsche and hold his philosophy as the best philosophy. There is no supernatural element involved with either. It is a philosophical element.


Theological position? Is that bit an oxymoron then? :)

Atheological?
"It seems rather obvious that plants have free will. Don't know why that would be controversial."
(John Platko)
archibald
 
Posts: 10285
Male

Country: Northern Ireland
Print view this post

Re: How many Christians are here in this “Christianity” forum?

#158  Postby ScholasticSpastic » Dec 19, 2014 12:59 am

Fallible wrote:
Cody wrote:@ Fallible. Well, I do think you made a choice probably as a result of the lack of evidence of God's existence.


No offence, but it doesn't matter at all what you think, only what you can demonstrate. You cannot demonstrate that I made a choice. I was raised without religion, and as a result I never believed. I didn't choose that. I had no say. But even now that I do have a say, I cannot simply decide that lack of evidence is not important and that I will now be a Christian. Nor can a Christian just suddenly decide that they will no longer believe. For them, either lack of evidence is not an issue or they don't believe there is no evidence. Whichever it is, they cannot be said to have made a real choice between being a Christian or an atheist. If you disagree, then you should be able to become a believer right now.

I'm another atheist who came to my current response to the proposition of deity without volition. There was no choice for me either. And for most Christians I know, there has been no choice. You are either raised one way and then remain that way, or you experience a shift in perspective which alters your conclusion. The only "choice" when it comes to this shift in perspective is whether or not we accept the change. I could have struggled and concealed and remained outwardly a theist when my perspective changed, but I chose not to. So I did make a choice, but atheism was not it.

I've also tried to go back to Christianity. Nope. Didn't work. Once my perspective changed, there way no way to go back voluntarily. You are welcome to try this yourself, Cody. I am confident that you will find similarly to how I found.
"You have to be a real asshole to quote yourself."
~ ScholasticSpastic
User avatar
ScholasticSpastic
 
Name: D-Money Sr.
Posts: 6354
Age: 44
Male

Country: Behind Zion's Curtain
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: How many Christians are here in this “Christianity” forum?

#159  Postby Cody » Dec 19, 2014 9:40 am

Fallible wrote:No problem. I'm not sure it's as simple as choosing though. I mean I didn't choose to be an atheist, it's just that I'm not able to believe in a God.


We're getting bogged down in semantics here.Maybe I used the word,"choice" wrongly but whether you made a positive choice or a negative choice,it is still a choice of one kind or another isn't it? You accepted the position of being an atheist even though it was by default.
User avatar
Cody
 
Posts: 1864

Country: Scotland
Scotland (ss)
Print view this post

Re: How many Christians are here in this “Christianity” forum?

#160  Postby Agrippina » Dec 19, 2014 10:19 am

It wasn't a matter of "choice" for me. I just don't like being told what to do by people who don't know what they're talking about. So when teachers, and my parents told me that I "had to believe" in creation, A&E, Noah, etc etc., it sounded like telling me that I had to also believe that there was a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, or that opening an umbrella in the house was bad luck, or any of the things that parents and teachers tell children. I didn't choose to not believe that my grandfather went to heaven when he died, I saw a dead body in a coffin, just like I'd seen dead animals before, and I knew he was gone, forever, and that was it. So it wasn't a choice, it seemed like the default for me. I thought my parents were ignorant because they couldn't defend their belief in creation, and that my dad was an idiot when he made jokes about Darwinism. It embarrassed me, but I forgave him because to me he was just a man who didn't know very much about science. Again not a choice, just a reaction to the evidence presented to me.
Illegitimi non carborundum
User avatar
Agrippina
 
Posts: 36689
Age: 108
Female

Country: South Africa
South Africa (za)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Christianity

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest