If heaven and hell are real.

Then what is the meaning of life?

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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If heaven and hell are real.

#1  Postby dochmbi » Sep 21, 2017 8:30 am

I've heard many Christians tell me that life has no meaning without God. I'd like to ask a different question that I surprisingly I didn't find threads on as I googled.

What meaning is there to this short, insignificant life in the face of an eternal hell or heaven? The only thing I'd be doing is try and get myself a guaranteed spot in heaven (selfish) and try to get as many other people (altruistic) into heaven as well.

Given that I believe that only this world exists, only this life, I take care to enjoy it fully, to embrace life in all it's sides. I've found myself getting transcendental experiences swimming in the ocean, watching a sunset, jogging really hard, meditating, loving and having sex. My life has plenty of meaning and I realize it may all be over soon.

So, help me out here, give me some perspectives to my question. Thanks.
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Re: If heaven and hell are real.

#2  Postby Thommo » Sep 21, 2017 12:06 pm

Wouldn't it make more sense to ask on a Christian board? There are very few people here who are in a position to give you a serious answer, and just as atheists often complain that Christians ascribe incorrect beliefs and attitudes towards them, isn't that liable to happen in reverse?
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Re: If heaven and hell are real.

#3  Postby zulumoose » Sep 21, 2017 12:13 pm

I think the concepts of heaven and hell illustrate clearly how few believers are really genuine. If someone were really utterly convinced that an eternity of pleasure or torture awaited them based on their life here (which is not even the blink of an eye in comparison) they couldn't possibly be so casual about their religion and their actions, they would forever be striving to be a better person in the eyes of their deity, and study their religion with determination. Only fanatics actually do this, and it doesn't seem to make them better people.
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Re: If heaven and hell are real.

#4  Postby Thommo » Sep 21, 2017 12:24 pm

I doubt it, people don't deal that way with any other things with serious consequences, from driving while drunk, to improper skin care in the sun, to reckless casual sex, to saving for retirement. It takes a huge amount of prompting to get people to behave strictly according to their future needs, especially when something is entirely outside their experience.

Furthermore, it depends entirely on what is required to "get into heaven" in that person's belief. If what's required is accepting Jesus love and repenting your sins (which whole swathes of sects would claim as orthodox) then living a good life isn't even a part of it anyway, it's just part of what a Christian is asked to do, not a requirement for eternal life.

Now, it might be that very few Christians have self-consistent and satisfying answers to any and all such questions, but we'll never know if we sit here and speculate about it ourselves.
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Re: If heaven and hell are real.

#5  Postby zulumoose » Sep 21, 2017 12:45 pm

Good points, I guess I am a bit out of touch with how disconnected from the future many people seem to be.
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Re: If heaven and hell are real.

#6  Postby Scot Dutchy » Sep 21, 2017 1:09 pm

Heaven and hell where is the evidence?
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Re: If heaven and hell are real.

#7  Postby SafeAsMilk » Sep 21, 2017 1:24 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:Heaven and hell where is the evidence?

It's almost like you're trying to provide evidence that you don't know what the topic or the point is every time you parrot this statement. It never has anything to do with what's being discussed. Does the word "if" not translate or something?
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Re: If heaven and hell are real.

#8  Postby zulumoose » Sep 21, 2017 1:27 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:Heaven and hell where is the evidence?


The evidence is the infallible word of god, as recorded by fallible humans, and translated multiple times over centuries, but guided by an infallible hand, belonging to a god who (as recorded) displayed very fallible characteristics, which we can't judge, because we are fallible, so it must be right.
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Re: If heaven and hell are real.

#9  Postby SafeAsMilk » Sep 21, 2017 1:30 pm

Fallible's ears must be burning something fierce right now.
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Re: If heaven and hell are real.

#10  Postby Scot Dutchy » Sep 21, 2017 1:36 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Heaven and hell where is the evidence?

It's almost like you're trying to provide evidence that you don't know what the topic or the point is every time you parrot this statement. It never has anything to do with what's being discussed. Does the word "if" not translate or something?


What are you on about? You cant say 'if'. By saying that you are creating something that does not exist so why bother unless you have evidence. Makes about has much sense as saying; 'if the moon was made of cheese'. A completely worthless statement.
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Re: If heaven and hell are real.

#11  Postby SafeAsMilk » Sep 21, 2017 1:49 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Heaven and hell where is the evidence?

It's almost like you're trying to provide evidence that you don't know what the topic or the point is every time you parrot this statement. It never has anything to do with what's being discussed. Does the word "if" not translate or something?


What are you on about?

I'm on about exactly what I said, in plain English.

You cant say 'if'. By saying that you are creating something that does not exist so why bother unless you have evidence.

You can say "if", it happens all the time. It's the entire point of saying "if". You aren't creating anything, you are saying "let's work under the assumption that this is true for the sake of argument". Science does this all the time.

Makes about has much sense as saying; 'if the moon was made of cheese'. A completely worthless statement.

If you were trying to determine what the results would be if the moon were made out of cheese, it would be completely worthwhile and sensible. You could see if the moon being made out of cheese would give you the same results we observe in real life (we don't), and you could see why a person would assert that the moon is made out of cheese. The latter is the purpose of the thought experiment in this thread, stated about as clearly as can be: if we accept that heaven and hell are real, what are the results, and what does it say about the people who want heaven and hell to be real? That is the topic of the thread. Not a single person here thinks there's evidence for heaven or hell, to state possibly the most obvious thing in the world.
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Re: If heaven and hell are real.

#12  Postby Scot Dutchy » Sep 21, 2017 4:37 pm

Never mind.
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Re: If heaven and hell are real.

#13  Postby Fallible » Sep 21, 2017 5:54 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:Fallible's ears must be burning something fierce right now.


Hello I heard there is caek yes?
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Re: If heaven and hell are real.

#14  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 21, 2017 10:29 pm

If anything the notion of heaven and hell makes mortal live pointless, rather than the other way around.
If I am going to live on forever, especially in some magical themepark, why would I care about this life?
Of course the Catholic church also realised this and thus suicide is a sin and your actions in your mortal life affect your eternal life.
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Re: If heaven and hell are real.

#15  Postby SafeAsMilk » Sep 21, 2017 10:56 pm

Fallible wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:Fallible's ears must be burning something fierce right now.


Hello I heard there is caek yes?

And how.

Image
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Re: If heaven and hell are real.

#16  Postby SafeAsMilk » Sep 21, 2017 11:05 pm

Anyway, if I were still Christian I would have answered the OP like this:

Because you have to pass through this life to get to where you want to go in the next, this life is critical. You might say acting good because you want to go to heaven is selfish, but God knows why you act the way you do. If you do something good because you fear punishment instead of because it's the right thing to do, this is not good behavior. Through this life, you have to learn to act rightly because it's the right thing to do, and that's what God wants -- not a bunch of fools who do good things because they're afraid of punishment, like children afraid they won't get presents from Santa Claus. If you simply disappear after you die, if the sun burns out and the Earth becomes a husk, if the universe falls into heat death where nothing survives, ultimately everything you've ever done is completely pointless, whether you act good or bad.
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Re: If heaven and hell are real.

#17  Postby monkeyboy » Sep 22, 2017 2:17 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:Anyway, if I were still Christian I would have answered the OP like this:

Because you have to pass through this life to get to where you want to go in the next, this life is critical. You might say acting good because you want to go to heaven is selfish, but God knows why you act the way you do. If you do something good because you fear punishment instead of because it's the right thing to do, this is not good behavior. Through this life, you have to learn to act rightly because it's the right thing to do, and that's what God wants -- not a bunch of fools who do good things because they're afraid of punishment, like children afraid they won't get presents from Santa Claus. If you simply disappear after you die, if the sun burns out and the Earth becomes a husk, if the universe falls into heat death where nothing survives, ultimately everything you've ever done is completely pointless, whether you act good or bad.

I know we're only playing at this.....

So if God wants people to behave in a certain way, why aren't they all born equally to parents who set good examples of how to behave well? Why are some born with more hurdles to overcome than others, such as being born with limbs missing, born deaf or blind or both? Why are some people destined to die as infants, incapable of achieving any form of understanding of good or bad? Why are some born to abusive and neglectful parents, who raise them with corrupted morals?

If the answer is that people need to overcome challenges and difficulty, why do they? Isn't there a nicer way of sussing folks out? Why do some appear to get a lifetime of adversity whilst others hardly get a moment? Does it amuse God to see his chosen creations suffer? What criteria does he use to determine what level of hardship one has to endure through life?

And the daddy of all the questions..... how do you know this?
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Re: If heaven and hell are real.

#18  Postby laklak » Sep 22, 2017 2:29 am

The only possible answer is this God bloke is a right cunt.
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Re: If heaven and hell are real.

#19  Postby SafeAsMilk » Sep 22, 2017 2:40 am

monkeyboy wrote:
I know we're only playing at this.....

So if God wants people to behave in a certain way, why aren't they all born equally to parents who set good examples of how to behave well? Why are some born with more hurdles to overcome than others, such as being born with limbs missing, born deaf or blind or both? Why are some people destined to die as infants, incapable of achieving any form of understanding of good or bad? Why are some born to abusive and neglectful parents, who raise them with corrupted morals?

If the answer is that people need to overcome challenges and difficulty,

My response would have been: yes, that's the answer!

why do they?

Because that's how you learn. The God-man relationship is like a parent-child relationship. You want to give them everything and you want them to have a nice life and not suffer, but what happens if they're given everything and they never suffer? They become spoiled. They don't appreciate what they have. They become selfish. They don't do the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing.

Isn't there a nicer way of sussing folks out? Why do some appear to get a lifetime of adversity whilst others hardly get a moment?

Apparently, there isn't a nicer way to suss folks out. We don't know what the creator of the universe knows. Regarding different people's lot in life, appearances can be deceiving. It might seem that a person never suffers, but you don't know. You don't have to look far to see a celebrity with more money than they know what to do with, but somehow they're still miserable. You might even argue that someone who is given everything and doesn't suffer has an even more difficult task: to learn the truth without the life's lessons that people who suffer learn.

Does it amuse God to see his chosen creations suffer? What criteria does he use to determine what level of hardship one has to endure through life?

As stated before, God doesn't want to see his creations suffer, he's like a parent, blah blah blah. The criteria is what will be a challenge to you, and what adversity God knows you can face and succeed. God will never send you a challenge over which you cannot triumph.

And the daddy of all the questions..... how do you know this?

I'm long past my Bible quoting days, but a combination of that and what my dad and priests told me.
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Re: If heaven and hell are real.

#20  Postby SafeAsMilk » Sep 22, 2017 2:40 am

laklak wrote:The only possible answer is this God bloke is a right cunt.

Ayup.
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