Is it irrational for Christians to feel guilt/pride?

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Is it irrational for Christians to feel guilt/pride?

#1  Postby Keep It Real » Feb 09, 2017 11:56 am

So Christians believe they have free will because god gave them a soul or words to that effect. If somebody had free will they might think they should feel pride and guilt, but there's a problem with this. They didn't create their soul/free will mechanism so how could they take credit/feel guilt about the consequences of their decisions? They'd have to give the credit/blame to god instead wouldn't they?
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Re: Is it irrational for Christians to feel guilt/pride?

#2  Postby Keep It Real » Feb 09, 2017 12:27 pm

So even a christian, who thinks they have god given free will, must concede that they cannot take credit for the mechanism, and so they are in fact slaves to it's architecture therefor no free will afterall. It makes a mockery of the idea of afterlife reward/punishment when even Christians don't have free will and therefore should not be held responsible for their actions ultimately/eternally.
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Re: Is it irrational for Christians to feel guilt/pride?

#3  Postby LucidFlight » Feb 09, 2017 1:52 pm

Christians can still take credit for achievements obtained through the mechanism, even if the mechanism isn't created by them. It's like being given a car and racetrack and winning a race. Sure, some thanks goes to the team and the car, but your driving skill and free will are a requirement to win that race too. I guess one can't take all the credit, but certainly pride can be felt amongst the team, with credit going to God as well.
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Re: Is it irrational for Christians to feel guilt/pride?

#4  Postby BlackBart » Feb 09, 2017 2:16 pm

How can they take credit if they haven't got free will? :ask:
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Re: Is it irrational for Christians to feel guilt/pride?

#5  Postby LucidFlight » Feb 09, 2017 2:34 pm

As a Christian, it is sometimes important to take credit in the name of God. God has given thee thy blessed skills. Why not use them and take credit? Even in a system without free will, rewards can be given and pride felt.
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Re: Is it irrational for Christians to feel guilt/pride?

#6  Postby Keep It Real » Feb 09, 2017 2:42 pm

Rewards can and should be given, as they provide incentive (same goes for punishment) but how can one feel pride in something one is not responsible for? You can't have pride without free will, and free will is technically impossible AFAIK.
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Re: Is it irrational for Christians to feel guilt/pride?

#7  Postby LucidFlight » Feb 09, 2017 2:49 pm

Certainly you can have the feeling of pride — a sense of accomplishment, whatever the means. Even cheaters can feel pride. As a Christian one should not feel pride anyway, as it is not a virtue. Perhaps pride is not a good word. But certainly acknowledging oneself as a vessel of achievement under God is something that can happen, free-willed or not. If it was the will of God that you won, then so be it. Acknowledge it and bear your crucifix with a sense of achievement under God's will.
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Re: Is it irrational for Christians to feel guilt/pride?

#8  Postby Scot Dutchy » Feb 09, 2017 2:51 pm

In the church of Scotland I was taught pride was a sin. One should always be humble.
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Re: Is it irrational for Christians to feel guilt/pride?

#9  Postby BlackBart » Feb 09, 2017 2:53 pm

Pride would be imposed upon you by whatever mechanism that exists In place of free will. We manifestly still feel it.
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Re: Is it irrational for Christians to feel guilt/pride?

#10  Postby Scot Dutchy » Feb 09, 2017 2:55 pm

Never allowed free will in the church of Scotland.
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Re: Is it irrational for Christians to feel guilt/pride?

#11  Postby Keep It Real » Feb 09, 2017 3:25 pm

BlackBart wrote:Pride would be imposed upon you by whatever mechanism that exists In place of free will. We manifestly still feel it.


We only feel pride because of our instinct - that we are responsible for our actions. I feel it less and less these days as it becomes habitual to deny responsibility - I'm getting trained out of feeling guilt and pride. Not sure if it's a good thing or not for my mental health but it seems inevitable, sure as 1+1=2.
I still get a rush out of doing good things, things which have good consequences, so I can still get a buzz.
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Re: Is it irrational for Christians to feel guilt/pride?

#12  Postby laklak » Feb 09, 2017 3:31 pm

They should feel shame for believing such manifest bullshit.
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Re: Is it irrational for Christians to feel guilt/pride?

#13  Postby LucidFlight » Feb 09, 2017 3:35 pm

For what it's worth, I accept that humans experience a whole range of emotions and feelings towards events, not because they are rational, but because they are sometimes irrational. Humans are prone to being irrational. It is known. I like this. It makes things a bit more interesting — though, of course, sometimes difficult.
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Re: Is it irrational for Christians to feel guilt/pride?

#14  Postby Keep It Real » Feb 09, 2017 3:38 pm

laklak wrote:They should feel shame for believing such manifest bullshit.


but it's not their fault - they've just received the wrong environmental influences, warping their minds. Love thy neighbor laklak, even if they are fundies. Just think of them as infants, and you wouldn't hate an infant would you? I suppose this means I'm going to have to love all the pedos however :shudder:
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Re: Is it irrational for Christians to feel guilt/pride?

#15  Postby Scot Dutchy » Feb 09, 2017 3:40 pm

My thoughts exactly lak. Pride is not an instinct. It is a social concept. It is not required and often offensive. Satisfaction is a far better approach. Being satisfied with what you have achieved does not amount to pride.
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Re: Is it irrational for Christians to feel guilt/pride?

#16  Postby laklak » Feb 09, 2017 3:43 pm

Infants - ugh. Smelly, shitty, self-absorbed little sociopaths, the lot of them. I don't exactly hate them, but I prefer to avoid their company.
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Re: Is it irrational for Christians to feel guilt/pride?

#17  Postby Keep It Real » Feb 09, 2017 3:56 pm

Do you think they should feel shame for being an infant? I presume not and neither can/should a christian.
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Re: Is it irrational for Christians to feel guilt/pride?

#18  Postby Scot Dutchy » Feb 09, 2017 4:02 pm

What's a xtian? They should feel shame they cant think for themselves.
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Re: Is it irrational for Christians to feel guilt/pride?

#19  Postby BlackBart » Feb 09, 2017 4:09 pm

Bad analogy. You can renounce Christianity - as many here have - you can't renounce being an infant.
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Re: Is it irrational for Christians to feel guilt/pride?

#20  Postby LucidFlight » Feb 09, 2017 4:12 pm

Keep It Real wrote:Do you think they should feel shame for being an infant? I presume not and neither can/should a christian.

One should feel shame if one perceives one's actions to be shameful. A Christian is not an infant. At least, most adult Christians have developed a reference upon which they can measure shame. The Bible teaches that adultery is bad. Practise adultery, and one should feel shame — especially should that adultery become known to the congregation. A Christian doing things deemed to be bad should feel shame. This is the Christian way.
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