Is Jesus mythicism "denialism"?

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Is Jesus mythicism "denialism"?

#101  Postby Shrunk » Dec 02, 2015 12:05 pm

Leucius Charinus wrote:
So is the evidence in favour of an historical Jesus so strong that someone holding the contrary position can justifiably be called a "denialist"?


It follows that anyone who wishes to evaluate a meaningful answer to this question needs to review or research as much of the evidence as possible.


No, it's just necessary to review enough to evidence to come to an informed conclusion. If someone doubted the theory of evolution, I think it would be enough for them to read thru a website summarizing the evidence to come to an acceptance of the theory. I don't think they need to review every single piece of research in the peer-reviewed literature.
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Re: Is Jesus mythicism "denialism"?

#102  Postby Leucius Charinus » Dec 03, 2015 2:42 am

Shrunk wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
So is the evidence in favour of an historical Jesus so strong that someone holding the contrary position can justifiably be called a "denialist"?


It follows that anyone who wishes to evaluate a meaningful answer to this question needs to review or research as much of the evidence as possible.


No, it's just necessary to review enough to evidence to come to an informed conclusion.


Each to their own.

If someone doubted the theory of evolution, I think it would be enough for them to read thru a website summarizing the evidence to come to an acceptance of the theory.


The theory of evolution? What about your OP? What if someone questioned or doubted or opposed the theory, promulgated by the [utterly corrupt] church organisation for millennia, that Jesus was historical? At what point would the questions, doubt or opposition to this theory [actually an hypothesis] become a denial of the evidence?

Here is a summary of the evidence for Jesus:

1) The canonical books of the NT (preserved by the church organisation since antiquity)
2) The writings of the "Church Fathers" as preserved in the source labelled "Eusebius" (preserved by the church organisation since antiquity)
3) Non Ecclesiastical literary sources such as: Josephus, Pliny, Trajan, Tacitus, Suetonius, etc (preserved by, or "suddenly and unexpectedly discovered" in the archives of, the [utterly corrupt] church)
4) OTHER EVIDENCE: archaeology, inscriptions, art, figurines, graffiti, papyri, manuscripts, "house-churches", etc, etc, etc.

So if this is the evidence in favour of an historical Jesus, is it so strong that someone holding the contrary position can justifiably be called a "denialist" by members of the Church Organisation of the 21st century?

I think you answered NO to this question yourself, so at least we agree on that.
Last edited by Leucius Charinus on Dec 03, 2015 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Jesus mythicism "denialism"?

#103  Postby proudfootz » Dec 03, 2015 2:46 am

It comes down to what is 'enough evidence'.

In this case there is very little evidence - as opposed to the Theory of Evolution which has literally tons of evidence.
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Re: Is Jesus mythicism "denialism"?

#104  Postby Leucius Charinus » Dec 03, 2015 2:59 am

The fields are also different. Evolution is in the field of science. Anything to do with Jesus is generally recognised to be in the field of ancient history. The theory of evolution is framed according to the scientific method. Any theory of Jesus is framed according to the historical method.
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Re: Is Jesus mythicism "denialism"?

#105  Postby proudfootz » Dec 03, 2015 3:25 am

Leucius Charinus wrote:The fields are also different. Evolution is in the field of science. Anything to do with Jesus is generally recognised to be in the field of ancient history. The theory of evolution is framed according to the scientific method. Any theory of Jesus is framed according to the historical method.


Actually, many mainstream theories about Jesus are framed according to bible students.

It remains to be seen whether bible study can be absorbed by historical methodology. :coffee:
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Re: Is Jesus mythicism "denialism"?

#106  Postby Leucius Charinus » Dec 04, 2015 12:33 am

proudfootz wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:The fields are also different. Evolution is in the field of science. Anything to do with Jesus is generally recognised to be in the field of ancient history. The theory of evolution is framed according to the scientific method. Any theory of Jesus is framed according to the historical method.


Actually, many mainstream theories about Jesus are framed according to bible students.


Yes it's true that Biblical Historians use "church dogma" as if it were historical evidence.

It remains to be seen whether bible study can be absorbed by historical methodology. :coffee:


The relationship between Biblical Historians and Ancient Historians is provided quite clearly by one of the foremost ancient historians of the 20th century Arnaldo Momigliano when he writes:


    ON PAGANS, JEWS, and CHRISTIANS
    --- Arnaldo Momigliano, 1987


    Chapter 1:

    Biblical Studies and Classical Studies
    Simple Reflections upon Historical Method



    p.3

    Principles of Historical research need not be different
    from criteria of common sense. And common sense teaches
    us that outsiders must not tell insiders what they should
    do. I shall therefore not discuss directly what biblical
    scholars are doing. They are the insiders.
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Re: Is Jesus mythicism "denialism"?

#107  Postby lpetrich » Feb 07, 2016 11:29 pm

Jesus mythicism seems like it has a certain common feature of crackpottery.

He has strong compulsions to focus his attacks on the greatest scientists and the best-established theories. When Newton was the outstanding name in physics, eccentric works in that science were violently anti-Newton. Today, with Einstein the father-symbol of authority, a crank theory of physics is likely to attack Einstein in the name of Newton. This same defiance can be seen in a tendency to assert the diametrical opposite of well-established beliefs. Mathematicians prove the angle cannot be trisected. So the crank trisects it. A perpetual motion machine cannot be built. He builds one. There are many eccentric theories in which the "pull" of gravity is replaced by a "push." Germs do not cause disease, some modern cranks insist. Disease produces the germs. Glasses do not help the eyes, said Dr. Bates. They make them worse. In our next chapter we shall learn how Cyrus Teed literally turned the entire cosmos inside-out, compressing it within the confines of a hollow earth, inhabited only on the inside.

(Martin Gardner, Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science)

But IMO Jesus mythicism is not far from minimalist historicism like the Haile Selassie scenario, as it may be called. Someone real but with so much mythology in surviving accounts of him that it's hard to tell fact from fiction.
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Re: Is Jesus mythicism "denialism"?

#108  Postby proudfootz » Feb 08, 2016 12:51 pm

Yes, much like that crackpot Copernicus attacking the the Geocentric Theory of the solar system, or that dingbat Darwin attacking Creationism.

If overturning a previously accepted paradigm is a symptom of crackpottery, that would pretty much put any advance in knowledge in that category.
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Re: Is Jesus mythicism "denialism"?

#109  Postby dejuror » Feb 08, 2016 3:25 pm

lpetrich wrote:
(Martin Gardner, Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science)

But IMO Jesus mythicism is not far from minimalist historicism like the Haile Selassie scenario, as it may be called. Someone real but with so much mythology in surviving accounts of him that it's hard to tell fact from fiction.


Your statement is hopelessly absurd. The evidence to support argument that Jesus was a myth is actually documented in hundreds [if not thousands] of manuscripts.

It is so-called Jesus historicists who are in denial.

Jesus historicism is indeed a crackpot theory directly based on faith and fiction.

Haile Selassie was a known and documented figure of history whether or not there are false claims about him.

Since at least the 2nd century Christians of antiquity publicly declared that their Jesus was born of a ghost.
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Re: Is Jesus mythicism "denialism"?

#110  Postby lpetrich » Feb 08, 2016 7:44 pm

There are stories of divine paternity of people whose existence that we accept: Pythagoras, Plato, Alexander the Great, and Augustus Caesar. So we can treat Jesus Christ's alleged divine paternity as comparable to theirs.
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Re: Is Jesus mythicism "denialism"?

#111  Postby lpetrich » Feb 08, 2016 7:45 pm

dejuror wrote:
lpetrich wrote:
(Martin Gardner, Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science)

But IMO Jesus mythicism is not far from minimalist historicism like the Haile Selassie scenario, as it may be called. Someone real but with so much mythology in surviving accounts of him that it's hard to tell fact from fiction.

Your statement is hopelessly absurd. The evidence to support argument that Jesus was a myth is actually documented in hundreds [if not thousands] of manuscripts.

What evidence is that?
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Re: Is Jesus mythicism "denialism"?

#112  Postby proudfootz » Feb 09, 2016 12:11 am

lpetrich wrote:There are stories of divine paternity of people whose existence that we accept: Pythagoras, Plato, Alexander the Great, and Augustus Caesar. So we can treat Jesus Christ's alleged divine paternity as comparable to theirs.


True - we have to take each case on its own merits.

Plato, Alexander, and Augustus have robust catalogues of evidence for existing outside of any legends that might have attached to them.
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Re: Is Jesus mythicism "denialism"?

#113  Postby lpetrich » Feb 09, 2016 1:01 am

dejuror wrote:Haile Selassie was a known and documented figure of history whether or not there are false claims about him.

That's what makes him a good test case. The Rastafarian sect of Jamaica came to believe that he was some sort of messiah figure, and it's instructive to compare the actual Haile Selassie and the Rastafarian version of him.
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Re: Is Jesus mythicism "denialism"?

#114  Postby proudfootz » Feb 09, 2016 2:25 am

lpetrich wrote:
dejuror wrote:Haile Selassie was a known and documented figure of history whether or not there are false claims about him.

That's what makes him a good test case. The Rastafarian sect of Jamaica came to believe that he was some sort of messiah figure, and it's instructive to compare the actual Haile Selassie and the Rastafarian version of him.


Yes, the Selassie cased is interesting in itself.

But no one denies real people can become encumbered with legends.

No one denies legends can be mistaken for reality.
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Re: Is Jesus mythicism "denialism"?

#115  Postby Kapyong » Feb 09, 2016 6:32 am

Gday all,

Animavore wrote:The real life Jesus of the likes of Ehrman is far more cohesive than the usual myther Jesus which usually relies on some conspiracy.


Not true.

Carrier does NOT argue for any conspiracy.
Nor Doherty.
Nor Price.
Nor Brodie.

Some crackpots have - so what ?

Smearing the Jesus Myth theory as a conspiracy theory (which really means 'crazy stuff no-one believes') appears to be just an attempt to poison the well. It's just pure Jesus Myth Denialism.


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Re: Is Jesus mythicism "denialism"?

#116  Postby Matt_B » Feb 09, 2016 7:03 am

My own take would be that, whether based on a real person or otherwise, Christianity is undoubtedly a myth. As such, the historicity of Jesus is pretty much irrelevant.

I don't think that the historical evidence definitively points to Jesus never having lived though; it just sets a very low upper bound on his contemporary significance.
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Re: Is Jesus mythicism "denialism"?

#117  Postby Clive Durdle » Feb 09, 2016 10:13 am

Actually, maybe starting with myth, but tangentially, is a way through this.

We are discussing "the greatest story ever told" where the lion lays down with the lamb and god is with us, leading to a new heaven and a new earth where the Christ marries his bride humanity.

To this there have been various accretions, much like the formation of California by two plates crashing together, eventually leading to the Gold Rush and earthquake. (Meldahl Rough hewn land.)

I agree we are looking at a composite figure with very strong literary and theatrical elements, which the timeline is showing is later than Paul's Cosmic Christ, but pushed back in time to an allegedly important point, but with confusions for example about which Herod.
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Re: Is Jesus mythicism "denialism"?

#118  Postby Clive Durdle » Feb 09, 2016 10:15 am

The geological myth theory :-)
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Re: Is Jesus mythicism "denialism"?

#119  Postby Leucius Charinus » Feb 09, 2016 11:11 am

Kapyong wrote:Gday all,

Animavore wrote:The real life Jesus of the likes of Ehrman is far more cohesive than the usual myther Jesus which usually relies on some conspiracy.


Not true.

Carrier does NOT argue for any conspiracy.
Nor Doherty.
Nor Price.
Nor Brodie.

Some crackpots have - so what ?

Smearing the Jesus Myth theory as a conspiracy theory (which really means 'crazy stuff no-one believes') appears to be just an attempt to poison the well. It's just pure Jesus Myth Denialism.


Kapyong



Are you out and about on "Crackpot Patrol" Kapyong?

Poison what well? The well of Biblical Scholarship?

I think its some sort of tar pit.




.
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the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Is Jesus mythicism "denialism"?

#120  Postby proudfootz » Feb 09, 2016 2:07 pm

Kapyong wrote:Gday all,

Animavore wrote:The real life Jesus of the likes of Ehrman is far more cohesive than the usual myther Jesus which usually relies on some conspiracy.


Not true.

Carrier does NOT argue for any conspiracy.
Nor Doherty.
Nor Price.
Nor Brodie.

Some crackpots have - so what ?

Smearing the Jesus Myth theory as a conspiracy theory (which really means 'crazy stuff no-one believes') appears to be just an attempt to poison the well. It's just pure Jesus Myth Denialism.


Kapyong


:this:

People getting their ideas about 'Jesus mythicism' from their ideological opponents is like getting one's ideas about evolution from the Discovery Institute.

Maybe convenient, but could be very misleading.
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