IT'S A MIRACLE!

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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IT'S A MIRACLE!

#1  Postby DoctorE » Mar 21, 2016 10:15 pm

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Re: IT'S A MIRACLE!

#2  Postby Onyx8 » Mar 21, 2016 10:31 pm

That happened to a neighbour. Tree came down, missed his mailbox by inches. Why did god knock the tree down?
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
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Re: IT'S A MIRACLE!

#3  Postby monkeyboy » Mar 21, 2016 10:33 pm

Definitely worth more of God's time and effort than healing an amputee or having just one day in all of history where nobody died young, was born malformed, developed cancer, contracted some horrible fucking terminal disease, got raped, spent another day starving to death...etc.....etc.

That statue clearly needed saving more. Go team god! Whoop whoop. Can I get a hallelujah? More evidence that if God exists, he is a morally perverted cunt.
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Re: IT'S A MIRACLE!

#4  Postby Animavore » Mar 22, 2016 12:01 am

What a horrid, tacky statue. Looks like it's made of chalk and wishful thinking. If there really was a God he would've destroyed such a bastardisation of the nature he created.
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Re: IT'S A MIRACLE!

#5  Postby Gila Guerilla » Mar 22, 2016 12:26 am

The question one might ask, is: "What is a miracle?"
Is it an occurrence that is highly unlikely? The falling tree could have missed the statue without divine guidance, (and doubtless did).

Suppose a lump fell off a 'plane as it flew over the Sahara, and landed on the only person for miles around, killing them. Then according to the tree-missing-statue standard of miracle, the plane-part-hitting-lone-Saharan-pedestrian is also a miracle.

If unlikely good shit is a miracle, then unlikely bad shit ought to be too???

When a person praises "God" for the miracle of saving them in the midst of a hurricane or tsunami in which hundreds of others were killed, then what of the huge numbers not saved? I strikes me that the miracle claim is one of great arrogance on the claimant's part.
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Re: IT'S A MIRACLE!

#6  Postby DougC » Mar 22, 2016 2:29 am

Well, if it IS a miracle, I think it proves that god is a real lazy bastard these days.
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Re: IT'S A MIRACLE!

#7  Postby Ironclad » Mar 11, 2018 4:31 pm

Ouch!

Rwanda Seventh-Day Adventist churchgoers killed by lightning - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-43362508
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Re: IT'S A MIRACLE!

#8  Postby John Platko » Mar 11, 2018 6:17 pm

Gila Guerilla wrote:The question one might ask, is: "What is a miracle?"
Is it an occurrence that is highly unlikely? The falling tree could have missed the statue without divine guidance, (and doubtless did).

Suppose a lump fell off a 'plane as it flew over the Sahara, and landed on the only person for miles around, killing them. Then according to the tree-missing-statue standard of miracle, the plane-part-hitting-lone-Saharan-pedestrian is also a miracle.

If unlikely good shit is a miracle, then unlikely bad shit ought to be too???

When a person praises "God" for the miracle of saving them in the midst of a hurricane or tsunami in which hundreds of others were killed, then what of the huge numbers not saved? I strikes me that the miracle claim is one of great arrogance on the claimant's part.


I think you'll find that there isn't general agreement on "what is a miracle." The Catholic Church maintains stringent requirements in validating the authenticity of miracles. There are rules and steps that must be followed when assessing miracles. Unless someone was praying to Saint Fiacre at the time, I'm thinking this statue saving wouldn't get past the Catholic miracle filter. :no:

from
Fleeing to France, he established a hermitage in a cave near a spring, and was given land for his hermitage by Saint Faro of Meaux, who was bishop at the time. Fiacre asked for land for a garden for food and healing herbs. The bishop said Fiacre could have as much land as he could entrench in one day. The next morning Fiacre walked around the perimeter of the land he wanted, dragged his spade behind him. Wherever the spade touched, trees were toppled, bushes uprooted, and the soil was entrenched. A local woman heard of this, and claimed sorcery was involved, but the bishop decided it was a miracle.


:scratch: hmmm. He seems to be the go to St. for some other issues too.

Patronage
against barrenness
against fistula
against haemorrhoids
against piles
against sterility
against syphilis
against venereal disease
box makers
cab drivers
costermongers
florists
gardeners
hosiers
pewterers
taxi drivers
tile makers


:scratch: Not sure what to make of this:

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Re: IT'S A MIRACLE!

#9  Postby Fallible » Mar 11, 2018 9:54 pm

Two years late is marginally better than never, I guess.
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Re: IT'S A MIRACLE!

#10  Postby felltoearth » Mar 11, 2018 9:55 pm

John Platko wrote:
I think you'll find that there isn't general agreement on "what is a miracle."

Really? What a shocking revelation.
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Re: IT'S A MIRACLE!

#11  Postby Calilasseia » Mar 11, 2018 10:58 pm

Animavore wrote:What a horrid, tacky statue. Looks like it's made of chalk and wishful thinking. If there really was a God he would've destroyed such a bastardisation of the nature he created.


Several observers have commented on the manner, in which the devout are drawn to grotesquely self-parodying trash. Nothing is too tasteless, too tacky or too prone to hilarious mockery, that it will be avoided by at least some enthusiasts for the most infantile interpretations of mythology. Though sometimes, those posturing as being "sophisticated" religious adherents fall into the trap of being seduced by artefacts in this class as well, and Catholicism provides some cringe-making examples, readily available to anyone who heads off on a trip to Lourdes.

My first encounter with explicit presentation of this phenomenon came courtesy of a poster called Zeno over at Pharyngula, who penned the following:

It seems to me to be as sincere as it is crappy. No matter how feculent, any religiously inspired travesty will get fulsome praise from the devout. They take sincerity for quality and eagerly spoon up the most noisome dreck.


I've since discovered that the more idolatrous the manifestation of supernaturalism, the more likely its adherents are to exhibit a love of excremental tat, especially if, as Zeno above notes, the requisite adherents become convinced of the sincerity of the maker thereof. Anything emanating from the hand of a fellow True BelieverTM will be elevated far beyond its intrinsic worth, and result in yet another instance of the idolatry that motivated the fabrication of the suppuratingly bubotic artefact in question to begin with.

Catholicism falls into this trap precisely because it's pretty much shot through with idolatry, but one of the more hilarious recent developments, is the emergence of self-proclaimed "anti-idolatrous" strains of fundamentalist Protestantism that are, if anything, even more florid than Catholicism in this vein. Said branches of fundamentalist Protestantism are notable for exhibiting a frankly creepy fetish for specific lurid parts of the Old Testament, which are revered with a fervour that borders upon being an ideological radiation hazard. Usually, the requisite lurid Old Testament tracts chosen for such reverence, also happen to be the ones most easily pressed into service by pedlars of apologetics seeking divine 'legitimisation' for all manner of hideous bigotries.

It's not without reason that I've stated in the past, in various circles, that the last decent artist motivated by religion (decent here referring to quality of output) was William Holman Hunt, though some of his offerings were frankly surreal, and led to head-shaking even by devout Christians amongst the Victorians he was seeking to keep on the path of righteousness. He did, however, possess genuine talent, and when he let loose with said talent properly, he produced some sterling artworks. Even with my natural suspicion of supernaturalist propaganda, I can appreciate The Light Of The World as an instance where his output was both sincere and technically proficient, though some of his secular subjects are rendered with even more finesse. I'm also minded to note that he strove to be decent in the ethical sense as well, within his historical and intellectual limits, and modern observers would regard his fretful concerns about his personal life as woefully over-wrought, when compared to the venal excesses not only of some contemporaries, but of later figures with a vastly more troublesome influence upon history.

World War I killed off any hope of a successor to Holman Hunt here in England, the horrors of The Somme doing for Victorian and Edwardian piety what the Black Death did for much mediaeval religiosity. World War II might not have hammered the final nail in the coffin (though in Europe it's been a salutary experience for obvious reasons), but it's certainly not helped with regard to the emergence of a Holman Hunt for the present age. It's difficult to imagine a Holman Hunt figure, let alone a modern-day version of Bartolome Esteban Murillo, becoming prominent in the present, and the vacuum left by such non-emergence has been filled with the ninth-rate and the downright pathological.
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Re: IT'S A MIRACLE!

#12  Postby John Platko » Mar 12, 2018 3:34 am

Fallible wrote:Two years late is marginally better than never, I guess.


Would it have been "better" two years earlier? :roll:
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Re: IT'S A MIRACLE!

#13  Postby John Platko » Mar 12, 2018 3:53 am

Calilasseia wrote:
Animavore wrote:What a horrid, tacky statue. Looks like it's made of chalk and wishful thinking. If there really was a God he would've destroyed such a bastardisation of the nature he created.


Several observers have commented on the manner, in which the devout are drawn to grotesquely self-parodying trash. Nothing is too tasteless, too tacky or too prone to hilarious mockery, that it will be avoided by at least some enthusiasts for the most infantile interpretations of mythology. Though sometimes, those posturing as being "sophisticated" religious adherents fall into the trap of being seduced by artefacts in this class as well, and Catholicism provides some cringe-making examples, readily available to anyone who heads off on a trip to Lourdes.


:nono: It doesn't reach tacky until you stick her in a bathtub.

Image



My first encounter with explicit presentation of this phenomenon came courtesy of a poster called Zeno over at Pharyngula, who penned the following:

It seems to me to be as sincere as it is crappy. No matter how feculent, any religiously inspired travesty will get fulsome praise from the devout. They take sincerity for quality and eagerly spoon up the most noisome dreck.


I've since discovered that the more idolatrous the manifestation of supernaturalism, the more likely its adherents are to exhibit a love of excremental tat, especially if, as Zeno above notes, the requisite adherents become convinced of the sincerity of the maker thereof. Anything emanating from the hand of a fellow True BelieverTM will be elevated far beyond its intrinsic worth, and result in yet another instance of the idolatry that motivated the fabrication of the suppuratingly bubotic artefact in question to begin with.

Catholicism falls into this trap precisely because it's pretty much shot through with idolatry, but one of the more hilarious recent developments, is the emergence of self-proclaimed "anti-idolatrous" strains of fundamentalist Protestantism that are, if anything, even more florid than Catholicism in this vein. Said branches of fundamentalist Protestantism are notable for exhibiting a frankly creepy fetish for specific lurid parts of the Old Testament, which are revered with a fervour that borders upon being an ideological radiation hazard. Usually, the requisite lurid Old Testament tracts chosen for such reverence, also happen to be the ones most easily pressed into service by pedlars of apologetics seeking divine 'legitimisation' for all manner of hideous bigotries.

It's not without reason that I've stated in the past, in various circles, that the last decent artist motivated by religion (decent here referring to quality of output) was William Holman Hunt, though some of his offerings were frankly surreal, and led to head-shaking even by devout Christians amongst the Victorians he was seeking to keep on the path of righteousness. He did, however, possess genuine talent, and when he let loose with said talent properly, he produced some sterling artworks. Even with my natural suspicion of supernaturalist propaganda, I can appreciate The Light Of The World as an instance where his output was both sincere and technically proficient, though some of his secular subjects are rendered with even more finesse. I'm also minded to note that he strove to be decent in the ethical sense as well, within his historical and intellectual limits, and modern observers would regard his fretful concerns about his personal life as woefully over-wrought, when compared to the venal excesses not only of some contemporaries, but of later figures with a vastly more troublesome influence upon history.

World War I killed off any hope of a successor to Holman Hunt here in England, the horrors of The Somme doing for Victorian and Edwardian piety what the Black Death did for much mediaeval religiosity. World War II might not have hammered the final nail in the coffin (though in Europe it's been a salutary experience for obvious reasons), but it's certainly not helped with regard to the emergence of a Holman Hunt for the present age. It's difficult to imagine a Holman Hunt figure, let alone a modern-day version of Bartolome Esteban Murillo, becoming prominent in the present, and the vacuum left by such non-emergence has been filled with the ninth-rate and the downright pathological.
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Re: IT'S A MIRACLE!

#14  Postby Fallible » Mar 12, 2018 6:59 am

John Platko wrote:
Fallible wrote:Two years late is marginally better than never, I guess.


Would it have been "better" two years earlier? :roll:


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Re: IT'S A MIRACLE!

#15  Postby LucidFlight » Mar 12, 2018 8:13 am

felltoearth wrote:
John Platko wrote:
I think you'll find that there isn't general agreement on "what is a miracle."

Really? What a shocking revelation.

It would be a miracle if there was general agreement on "what is a miracle".
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Re: IT'S A MIRACLE!

#16  Postby John Platko » Mar 12, 2018 1:45 pm

But some statues shouldn't be erected. :nono:

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Re: IT'S A MIRACLE!

#17  Postby newolder » Mar 12, 2018 2:06 pm

^ When they "substantially alter the statue', what are they going to do? Put his cock on display?
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Re: IT'S A MIRACLE!

#18  Postby John Platko » Mar 12, 2018 3:05 pm

newolder wrote:^ When they "substantially alter the statue', what are they going to do? Put his cock on display?


:scratch: I have no idea what their plans are for the good lay brother's loaf. Given his skills, perhaps it will appear miraculously levitating bilocationally.

from

Martin de Porres Velázquez, O.P. (December 9, 1579 – November 3, 1639), was a lay brother of the Dominican Order who was beatified in 1837 by Pope Gregory XVI and canonized in 1962 by Pope John XXIII. He is the patron saint of mixed-race people, barbers, innkeepers, public health workers, and all those seeking racial harmony.

He was noted for work on behalf of the poor, establishing an orphanage and a children's hospital. He maintained an austere lifestyle, which included fasting and abstaining from meat. Among the many miracles attributed to him were those of levitation, bilocation, miraculous knowledge, instantaneous cures, and an ability to communicate with animals.


And this is interesting.

He was said to have a supernatural rapport with the natural world. The most famous single story connected with Martín had to do with a group of mice (or rats) that infested the monastery's collection of fine linen robes. Martín resisted the plans of the other monks to lay poison out for the mice. One day he caught a mouse and said (in the rendering of Angela M. Orsini of San Francisco's Martín de Porres House of Hospitality, one of many institutions and schools in the United States named after the Peruvian healer), "Little brothers, why are you and your companions doing so much harm to the things belonging to the sick? Look; I shall not kill you, but you are to assemble all your friends and lead them to the far end of the garden. Everyday I will bring you food if you leave the wardrobe alone"—whereupon Martín lead a Pied Piper-like mouse parade toward a small new den. Both the mice and Martín kept their word, and the closet infestation was solved for good. Martín loved animals of all kinds and seemed to have unusual skills in communicating with them. He would apply his medical skills to the treatment of a wounded dog found wandering the streets with the same energy he would devote to a sick human. Paintings of Martín often depicted him with a mouse, dog, or cat—or sometimes with a broom, symbolizing his devotion to everyday tasks.


Maybe they'll just put a mouse in his hand instead. :dunno:
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Re: IT'S A MIRACLE!

#19  Postby aban57 » Mar 12, 2018 3:15 pm

I can communicate with animals too. When is my beatification ?
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Re: IT'S A MIRACLE!

#20  Postby newolder » Mar 12, 2018 3:20 pm

John Platko wrote:
newolder wrote:^ When they "substantially alter the statue', what are they going to do? Put his cock on display?


:scratch: I have no idea what their plans are for the good lay brother's loaf. Given his skills, perhaps it will appear miraculously levitating bilocationally. ...

Then why are you against the statue's erection in the first place?
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