Hnau von Thulcandra wrote:

Animavore wrote:
What about the part, probably not in the clips above (I can't bring myself to watch), but in the film, where Becky Fisher starts telling the kids that Harry Potter is the work of Satan as she works them into a frenzy and has them all crying?

I'm not saying I agree with them on everything. I can respect Christian concern with Harry Potter, which the present Pope has spoken against as well (thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, ya know), though I happen to love the books myself.

And my opinion is hardly going to make any change their minds, but this "Jeebus" thing in its various manifestations is really annoying.

What "Jeebus" thing? Do you mean the name "Jeebus" itself? That's actually a term of respect. We're told not to take the lord's name in vain. "Jeebus, this meal sucks" is more respectful than "Jesus, this meal sucks". It's much like the progression in Judaism from Yaweh (the dude's name) to Adonai ("lord") to Adoshem (a euphemism even farther removed).

(The transliterations are awful - my apologies.)

Hnau von Thulcandra wrote: I can respect Christian concern with Harry Potter

You respect grown adults who can't recognise the difference between real life and a fairy tale?

Why?

Hnau von Thulcandra wrote:

Animavore wrote:
I can respect Christian concern with Harry Potter, which the present Pope has spoken against as well (thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, ya know)...

Do you support the wholesale murder of accused "witches" currently taking place in many areas of Africa? Or do you just support the idiotic rantings of people who think fiction is somehow damaging to an imaginary "soul", and that ignorance is better than education through reading?

Hnau von Thulcandra wrote:

Think Floyd wrote:
These clips truly disgust me. To indoctrinate innocent children into an ancient tradition of ignorance, fear, superstition and guilt is truly among the greatest crimes any person or institution can commit.

Well, millions of American youth get so indoctrinated every Sunday morning. How are these any different?

Brainwashing and indoctrination not wrong because millions go through the same thing already? Well, fuck me, you really stumped us free thinkers there! Rick Warren's admiration for the zeal of the Hitler Youth is quite understandable in that context...

CookieJon wrote:

Hnau von Thulcandra wrote: I can respect Christian concern with Harry Potter

You respect grown adults who can't recognise the difference between real life and a fairy tale?

Why?

Are we talking Harry Potter, or religion?

dionysus wrote:The one thing that always freaked me out more than anything is that most of these people (the parents, kids, etc.) all seem pretty normal despite their crazy, intolerant, anti-science, anti-democratic beliefs. What it shows is that it doesn't take a complete monster to cause problems for everyone but rather a bunch of regular people who think they're doing what's best for everyone.

Very well put. I like this!

dionysus wrote:The one thing that always freaked me out more than anything is that most of these people (the parents, kids, etc.) all seem pretty normal despite their crazy, intolerant, anti-science, anti-democratic beliefs. What it shows is that it doesn't take a complete monster to cause problems for everyone but rather a bunch of regular people who think they're doing what's best for everyone.

While editing the bolded bits some, I will totally agree with respect to atheists.

orpheus wrote:
What "Jeebus" thing? Do you mean the name "Jeebus" itself? That's actually a term of respect. We're told not to take the lord's name in vain. "Jeebus, this meal sucks" is more respectful than "Jesus, this meal sucks". It's much like the progression in Judaism from Yaweh (the dude's name) to Adonai ("lord") to Adoshem (a euphemism even farther removed).

Haha, somehow I doubt that's what was meant here. Especially since the "s" got turned into a "$".

Weaver wrote:
Do you support the wholesale murder of accused "witches" currently taking place in many areas of Africa? Or do you just support the idiotic rantings of people who think fiction is somehow damaging to an imaginary "soul", and that ignorance is better than education through reading?

If they really are causing demonic harm with their incantations, sure. But I kinda doubt they are.

Hnau von Thulcandra wrote:

Weaver wrote:
Do you support the wholesale murder of accused "witches" currently taking place in many areas of Africa? Or do you just support the idiotic rantings of people who think fiction is somehow damaging to an imaginary "soul", and that ignorance is better than education through reading?

If they really are causing demonic harm with their incantations, sure. But I kinda doubt they are.

But you allow for the possibility?

Hnau von Thulcandra wrote:

dionysus wrote:The one thing that always freaked me out more than anything is that most of these people (the parents, kids, etc.) all seem pretty normal despite their crazy, intolerant, anti-science, anti-democratic beliefs. What it shows is that it doesn't take a complete monster to cause problems for everyone but rather a bunch of regular people who think they're doing what's best for everyone.

While editing the bolded bits some, I will totally agree with respect to atheists.

All atheists have a common set of beliefs now? Did I miss a memo? Though I'll agree that there are, in fact, atheists who are every bit as bad as these fundies (i.e. Stalinists, Maoists, Jong-Ilists, etc.), what you're doing is painting all of us with a broad brush. Notice, I didn't claim that all Christians are like this, I said this particular group is. I'll give you a little bit of a benefit of the doubt that you just worded that horribly and give you a chance to retract or modify that statement. Or, if you meant it as an all-inclusive statement then you'll have to prove it.

Hnau von Thulcandra wrote:

Weaver wrote:
Do you support the wholesale murder of accused "witches" currently taking place in many areas of Africa? Or do you just support the idiotic rantings of people who think fiction is somehow damaging to an imaginary "soul", and that ignorance is better than education through reading?

If they really are causing demonic harm with their incantations, sure. But I kinda doubt they are.

So you support killing people then? And how do you tell if they are causing "demonic harm" anyway? Because last I heard a few different sects of Christianity tried to and sent many people who turned out to be innocent to their deaths. What makes you so special that you can succeed where other religious people have failed?

I was thinking that the best place for Aaron's rod is up Ted Haggard's ... but then I thought, that's what Ted would want.

chairman bill wrote:I was thinking that the best place for Aaron's rod is up Ted Haggard's ... but then I thought, that's what Ted would want.

CdesignProponentsist wrote:Ted Haggard's favorite story was about some guy's rod that came to life? Is this what's called foreshadowing?

And the bit where he says, 'this church is just like the catholic church'. Sure you don't want to rephrase that, Ted?

Although, given his obvious penchant ofr youngish boys...

Ehh? None of this stuff is particularly terrible. Just a boring load of tripe, those kids aren't going to be affecting anyone...

Hnau von Thulcandra wrote:I never got how this film causes such horror. True, those Pentecostal folks do have rather odd beliefs, but so what? All I saw here was a bunch of cute kids watching Veggie Tales.

I tend to agree with Hnau on this one. I think the Jesus Camp movie puts too much of a negative spin on what's really going on. It's easy for 'outsiders' to get the wrong impression.

hackenslash wrote:

CdesignProponentsist wrote:Ted Haggard's favorite story was about some guy's rod that came to life? Is this what's called foreshadowing?

And the bit where he says, 'this church is just like the catholic church'. Sure you don't want to rephrase that, Ted?

Although, given his obvious penchant ofr youngish boys...

...and meth-aphysics...

reddix wrote:

Hnau von Thulcandra wrote:I never got how this film causes such horror. True, those Pentecostal folks do have rather odd beliefs, but so what? All I saw here was a bunch of cute kids watching Veggie Tales.

I tend to agree with Hnau on this one. I think the Jesus Camp movie puts too much of a negative spin on what's really going on. It's easy for 'outsiders' to get the wrong impression.

I should add that the clips are a little unnerving to me. Particularly the third one. I see a lot of myself in the girl "Rachael" when I was her age. And I know where it leads.

I don't remember deleted scenes being on the DVD.

My Christian nephew even thought the people on there were fucked up.

dionysus wrote:
All atheists have a common set of beliefs now? Did I miss a memo? Though I'll agree that there are, in fact, atheists who are every bit as bad as these fundies (i.e. Stalinists, Maoists, Jong-Ilists, etc.), what you're doing is painting all of us with a broad brush. Notice, I didn't claim that all Christians are like this, I said this particular group is. I'll give you a little bit of a benefit of the doubt that you just worded that horribly and give you a chance to retract or modify that statement. Or, if you meant it as an all-inclusive statement then you'll have to prove it.

Sorry, I don't mean to imply all atheists are clumped together so. I meant merely I could think of many nonbelievers your statement could apply to.

dionysus wrote:
So you support killing people then? And how do you tell if they are causing "demonic harm" anyway? Because last I heard a few different sects of Christianity tried to and sent many people who turned out to be innocent to their deaths. What makes you so special that you can succeed where other religious people have failed?

If there are indeed people who can cast spells to cause ill, I don't think there would be any dispute - they should be punished. Now as a religious person I'm slightly more inclined than an atheist to consider that witches might possibly exist, but I' not suggesting they're a dire threat today, or ever. In 1612 a member of my family testified against her neighbor in the famous Pendle trials, and I regret that she was likely literally breaking the Ninth Commandment.

Hnau von Thulcandra wrote:
Sorry, I don't mean to imply all atheists are clumped together so. I meant merely I could think of many nonbelievers your statement could apply to.

In that case, I agree. And there are also Muslims, Pagans, Buddhists, Liberals, Conservatives, Libertarians, Americans, Chinese, Spanish, etc., etc., etc. that also have people like this. And I don't think I implied at all that it was only Christians that are like that. In fact, my comment was about how normal people (meaning people in any group) can end up doing terrible things.

Hnau von Thulcandra wrote:

dionysus wrote:
So you support killing people then? And how do you tell if they are causing "demonic harm" anyway? Because last I heard a few different sects of Christianity tried to and sent many people who turned out to be innocent to their deaths. What makes you so special that you can succeed where other religious people have failed?

If there are indeed people who can cast spells to cause ill, I don't think there would be any dispute - they should be punished. Now as a religious person I'm slightly more inclined than an atheist to consider that witches might possibly exist, but I' not suggesting they're a dire threat today, or ever. In 1612 a member of my family testified against her neighbor in the famous Pendle trials, and I regret that she was likely literally breaking the Ninth Commandment.

You didn't answer the question. How can you tell if someone is a witch? Do you take witness testimony at face value, do you drop them in water, do you weigh them against a duck? How can you possibly tell? Have you ever seen anyone cast a spell (outside of fiction)? Would you even know what to look for? As I mentioned and you demonstrated (which I must give you much credit for), people were unfairly executed for a crime which even the supposed experts couldn't be sure actually occurred. Now, don't you think a good first step would be to demonstrate 1) what witchcraft is 2) that it actually exists and 3) that people are actually capable of performing witchcraft before we start allowing people to kill others for it?

dionysus wrote:
Now, don't you think a good first step would be to demonstrate 1) what witchcraft is 2) that it actually exists and 3) that people are actually capable of performing witchcraft before we start allowing people to kill others for it?

Of course! Really, I don't think we have any difference of opinion, practicably and legally speaking.