Jesus killed children

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Jesus killed children

#41  Postby Doubtdispelled » Jan 05, 2012 11:53 am

paarsurrey wrote:Jesus killed no-body; it is the scribes writing a fiction

That's very interesting. It begs the question - how do you (i.e. anyone reading the words of the scribes) know when what they have written is fiction, and when it is fact?

Could - gulp - everything they have written be fiction? :shock: Or are only the good bits about jebus true? Or maybe the good bits are fiction and all the bad is true. Or vice versa. I need coffee. :coffee:
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Re: Jesus killed children

#42  Postby NineOneFour » Jan 05, 2012 11:54 am

GakuseiDon wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
nunnington wrote:
DodgyScouser wrote:

That story of the fig trees always bothered me, even when I was a believer. Jesus just seemed to be acting like a petulant little shit, and none of the waffly answers given by anyone at my church could gloss over the fact that he was acting like a petulant little shit.


Did no-one mention that the fig-tree could be a symbol for Israel, seen as barren and faithless, and not yielding fruit?


Since the fig was 'out of season' only an ignoramus would expect to find fruit.

Didn't Jesus help his Dad create these trees? He should have known better!

Why didn't the original author know any better, in your opinion? Why have the story of Jesus cursing a fig tree for no fruit and also state that it wasn't the season for fruit?


For the same reason the authors of the books of the Bible have taking snakes, talking donkeys, misinterpret OT passages, have Jesus riding on both a foal and an ass, and didn't know what pi was.

They were goddamn duckfucking idiots.
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Re: Jesus killed children

#43  Postby Zwaarddijk » Jan 05, 2012 12:04 pm

NineOneFour wrote:
GakuseiDon wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
nunnington wrote:

Did no-one mention that the fig-tree could be a symbol for Israel, seen as barren and faithless, and not yielding fruit?


Since the fig was 'out of season' only an ignoramus would expect to find fruit.

Didn't Jesus help his Dad create these trees? He should have known better!

Why didn't the original author know any better, in your opinion? Why have the story of Jesus cursing a fig tree for no fruit and also state that it wasn't the season for fruit?

For the same reason the authors of the books of the Bible have taking snakes, talking donkeys, misinterpret OT passages, have Jesus riding on both a foal and an ass, and didn't know what pi was.

They were goddamn duckfucking idiots.

Re: pi, apparently you don't know of significant figures either? Is that sufficient excuse to call you a goddamn duckfucking idiot now? (NOTE: that is not me calling you that, it's me asking whether it's sufficient reason. If you think it isn't, you should reconsider your own use of such terminology.)
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Re: Jesus killed children

#44  Postby DodgyScouser » Jan 05, 2012 12:19 pm

trubble76 wrote:
nunnington wrote:
DodgyScouser wrote:
Animavore wrote:He also killed fig trees :o


That story of the fig trees always bothered me, even when I was a believer. Jesus just seemed to be acting like a petulant little shit, and none of the waffly answers given by anyone at my church could gloss over the fact that he was acting like a petulant little shit.


Did no-one mention that the fig-tree could be a symbol for Israel, seen as barren and faithless, and not yielding fruit?


True, but it could also be a symbol for something else. It was brown and sticky, wasn't it?

Either way, it not a very divine example to set.


No, I don't think anybody did mention that, nunnington. I was surfing the web for references to that story just now, and sure enough on the Christian Courier web site (http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/646-why-did-jesus-curse-the-fig-tree) I find the following:

This episode is a deadly refutation of the false notion that there will be a revival of the old nation of Israel in the “end times” — as advocated by dispensationalists and premillennialists.


so maybe there was a point to the story after all. Still seems a bit harsh on the fig tree and, as trubble says, might easily be mistaken for acting like a petulant little shit.
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Re: Jesus killed children

#45  Postby GakuseiDon » Jan 05, 2012 12:23 pm

nunnington wrote:
DodgyScouser wrote:
Animavore wrote:He also killed fig trees :o


That story of the fig trees always bothered me, even when I was a believer. Jesus just seemed to be acting like a petulant little shit, and none of the waffly answers given by anyone at my church could gloss over the fact that he was acting like a petulant little shit.


Did no-one mention that the fig-tree could be a symbol for Israel, seen as barren and faithless, and not yielding fruit?

Yes, I think something along that line is the likely explanation. The passages appear within Mark 11:1-25.

The text goes:

1. (Mark 11:1-11) Jesus goes to Jerusalem. People cheer and call out "Hosanna!" --> Jerusalem appears inviting, with an appearance of ready to accept Jesus as king.
2. (Mark 11:12-14) Jesus is hungry and sees a fig tree covered with leaves --> the fig tree is inviting, with an appearance of having fruit even though it wasn't the season for fruit.
3. (Mark 11:12-14) But the fig tree, despite appearances, does not have fruit --> the fig tree is deceptive!
4. (Mark 11:15-18) Jesus goes into Jerusalem and overturns the tables in the Temple. Despite the friendly welcome earlier when people are shouting "Hosanna!", the elders plot to kill Jesus --> Jerusalem is deceptive!
5. (Mark 11:19-20) After leaving Jerusalem, the disciples notice that the fig tree has eventually withered.

If the passage is symbolic, then it seems to point towards the eventual fate of Jerusalem and its elders.
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Re: Jesus killed children

#46  Postby GakuseiDon » Jan 05, 2012 12:26 pm

NineOneFour wrote:
GakuseiDon wrote:
proudfootz wrote:Since the fig was 'out of season' only an ignoramus would expect to find fruit.

Didn't Jesus help his Dad create these trees? He should have known better!

Why didn't the original author know any better, in your opinion? Why have the story of Jesus cursing a fig tree for no fruit and also state that it wasn't the season for fruit?


For the same reason the authors of the books of the Bible have taking snakes, talking donkeys, misinterpret OT passages, have Jesus riding on both a foal and an ass, and didn't know what pi was.

They were goddamn duckfucking idiots.

I see. :think:
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Re: Jesus killed children

#47  Postby IgnorantiaNescia » Jan 05, 2012 12:48 pm

GakuseiDon wrote:
nunnington wrote:
DodgyScouser wrote:
Animavore wrote:He also killed fig trees :o


That story of the fig trees always bothered me, even when I was a believer. Jesus just seemed to be acting like a petulant little shit, and none of the waffly answers given by anyone at my church could gloss over the fact that he was acting like a petulant little shit.


Did no-one mention that the fig-tree could be a symbol for Israel, seen as barren and faithless, and not yielding fruit?

Yes, I think something along that line is the likely explanation. The passages appear within Mark 11:1-25.

The text goes:

1. (Mark 11:1-11) Jesus goes to Jerusalem. People cheer and call out "Hosanna!" --> Jerusalem appears inviting, with an appearance of ready to accept Jesus as king.
2. (Mark 11:12-14) Jesus is hungry and sees a fig tree covered with leaves --> the fig tree is inviting, with an appearance of having fruit even though it wasn't the season for fruit.
3. (Mark 11:12-14) But the fig tree, despite appearances, does not have fruit --> the fig tree is deceptive!
4. (Mark 11:15-18) Jesus goes into Jerusalem and overturns the tables in the Temple. Despite the friendly welcome earlier when people are shouting "Hosanna!", the elders plot to kill Jesus --> Jerusalem is deceptive!
5. (Mark 11:19-20) After leaving Jerusalem, the disciples notice that the fig tree has eventually withered.

If the passage is symbolic, then it seems to point towards the eventual fate of Jerusalem and its elders.


Do you mean with the eventual fate the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 or just the rejection of Jesus by the elders and Jerusalem? If the first one is right, that would establish that gMark is written after the destruction of Jerusalem (within the usual margins given for Mark), but the second one seems also a valid interpretation.
Last edited by IgnorantiaNescia on Jan 05, 2012 1:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jesus killed children

#48  Postby IgnorantiaNescia » Jan 05, 2012 12:50 pm

IgnorantiaNescia wrote:
Zwaarddijk wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:
GakuseiDon wrote:
Why didn't the original author know any better, in your opinion? Why have the story of Jesus cursing a fig tree for no fruit and also state that it wasn't the season for fruit?

For the same reason the authors of the books of the Bible have taking snakes, talking donkeys, misinterpret OT passages, have Jesus riding on both a foal and an ass, and didn't know what pi was.

They were goddamn duckfucking idiots.

Re: pi, apparently you don't know of significant figures either? Is that sufficient excuse to call you a goddamn duckfucking idiot now? (NOTE: that is not me calling you that, it's me asking whether it's sufficient reason. If you think it isn't, you should reconsider your own use of such terminology.)


It's indeed a little daft to suppose that they had to note their most accurate approximation for pi. This site attempts to demonstrate that the example in 1 Kings 7:23-26 refers to approximately 3.14, which would be fairly normal for the time. There are some issues with the units, though. I recalculated it with different values for cubit and handbreadth (which are a bit of a minefield) and ended up with about 3.10. The assumption that the circumference refers to the inner circumference is more charitable than the assumption it refers to the outer circumference of the bowl, though.
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Re: Jesus killed children

#49  Postby GakuseiDon » Jan 05, 2012 12:59 pm

IgnorantiaNescia wrote:This site attempts to demonstrate that the example in 1 Kings 7:23-26 refers to 3.14, which would be fairly normal for the time. There are some issues with the units, though.

Actually, you don't even need that. Set up an Excel spreadsheet so that the cells are formatted to show numbers only as integer values (i.e. no decimal points). Put "9.6" in one cell (it will display as 10), then "3.142" in another, multiple them together in a third cell, and it will show a circumference of 30 where the diameter is 10 -- just like the Bible says! :cheers:
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Re: Jesus killed children

#50  Postby NineOneFour » Jan 05, 2012 1:26 pm

Zwaarddijk wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:
GakuseiDon wrote:
proudfootz wrote:

Since the fig was 'out of season' only an ignoramus would expect to find fruit.

Didn't Jesus help his Dad create these trees? He should have known better!

Why didn't the original author know any better, in your opinion? Why have the story of Jesus cursing a fig tree for no fruit and also state that it wasn't the season for fruit?

For the same reason the authors of the books of the Bible have taking snakes, talking donkeys, misinterpret OT passages, have Jesus riding on both a foal and an ass, and didn't know what pi was.

They were goddamn duckfucking idiots.

Re: pi, apparently you don't know of significant figures either? Is that sufficient excuse to call you a goddamn duckfucking idiot now? (NOTE: that is not me calling you that, it's me asking whether it's sufficient reason. If you think it isn't, you should reconsider your own use of such terminology.)


The difference is I don't claim to be knowledgeable about fig trees.

Therefore, your premise, duckfucking and all, is incorrect.
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Re: Jesus killed children

#51  Postby NineOneFour » Jan 05, 2012 1:26 pm

GakuseiDon wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:
GakuseiDon wrote:
proudfootz wrote:Since the fig was 'out of season' only an ignoramus would expect to find fruit.

Didn't Jesus help his Dad create these trees? He should have known better!

Why didn't the original author know any better, in your opinion? Why have the story of Jesus cursing a fig tree for no fruit and also state that it wasn't the season for fruit?


For the same reason the authors of the books of the Bible have taking snakes, talking donkeys, misinterpret OT passages, have Jesus riding on both a foal and an ass, and didn't know what pi was.

They were goddamn duckfucking idiots.

I see. :think:


Do you?
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Re: Jesus killed children

#52  Postby IgnorantiaNescia » Jan 05, 2012 1:48 pm

NineOneFour wrote:
Zwaarddijk wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:
GakuseiDon wrote:
Why didn't the original author know any better, in your opinion? Why have the story of Jesus cursing a fig tree for no fruit and also state that it wasn't the season for fruit?

For the same reason the authors of the books of the Bible have taking snakes, talking donkeys, misinterpret OT passages, have Jesus riding on both a foal and an ass, and didn't know what pi was.

They were goddamn duckfucking idiots.

Re: pi, apparently you don't know of significant figures either? Is that sufficient excuse to call you a goddamn duckfucking idiot now? (NOTE: that is not me calling you that, it's me asking whether it's sufficient reason. If you think it isn't, you should reconsider your own use of such terminology.)


The difference is I don't claim to be knowledgeable about fig trees.

Therefore, your premise, duckfucking and all, is incorrect.


Then how do you know it was the wrong season? Fig trees yielded fruit twice in a year, with one harvest being in spring. Pesach takes places in Nisan, which is in spring. So it was not the wrong season.

Though I don't think at all that Jesus cursed a fig tree and it withered, but it just shows that this argument is in dire need of being thought through some more. The passage was likely intended to be a premonition of the rejection and execution of Jesus in Jerusalem.
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Re: Jesus killed children

#53  Postby John P. M. » Jan 05, 2012 2:33 pm

By the way, a small digression - anyone know how 'biblical inerrantists' solve the discrepancy between Mark and Mathew regarding how quickly the fig tree withered? I guess I should know, 'cause I was once pretty much one of them, but can't remember how it was explained.
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Re: Jesus killed children

#54  Postby NineOneFour » Jan 05, 2012 2:38 pm

IgnorantiaNescia wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:
Zwaarddijk wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:
For the same reason the authors of the books of the Bible have taking snakes, talking donkeys, misinterpret OT passages, have Jesus riding on both a foal and an ass, and didn't know what pi was.

They were goddamn duckfucking idiots.

Re: pi, apparently you don't know of significant figures either? Is that sufficient excuse to call you a goddamn duckfucking idiot now? (NOTE: that is not me calling you that, it's me asking whether it's sufficient reason. If you think it isn't, you should reconsider your own use of such terminology.)


The difference is I don't claim to be knowledgeable about fig trees.

Therefore, your premise, duckfucking and all, is incorrect.


Then how do you know it was the wrong season? Fig trees yielded fruit twice in a year, with one harvest being in spring. Pesach takes places in Nisan, which is in spring. So it was not the wrong season.

Though I don't think at all that Jesus cursed a fig tree and it withered, but it just shows that this argument is in dire need of being thought through some more. The passage was likely intended to be a premonition of the rejection and execution of Jesus in Jerusalem.

The problem with these interpretations, is that apologists can interpret anything as meaningful of anything.

It might be a premonition of Barney the Purple Dinosaur.
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Re: Jesus killed children

#55  Postby IgnorantiaNescia » Jan 05, 2012 2:58 pm

John P. M. wrote:By the way, a small digression - anyone know how 'biblical inerrantists' solve the discrepancy between Mark and Mathew regarding how quickly the fig tree withered? I guess I should know, 'cause I was once pretty much one of them, but can't remember how it was explained.


I think this inerrantist website gives a few options of how an inerrantist might try to harmonise the two gospels.

NineOneFour wrote:
IgnorantiaNescia wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:
Zwaarddijk wrote:
Re: pi, apparently you don't know of significant figures either? Is that sufficient excuse to call you a goddamn duckfucking idiot now? (NOTE: that is not me calling you that, it's me asking whether it's sufficient reason. If you think it isn't, you should reconsider your own use of such terminology.)


The difference is I don't claim to be knowledgeable about fig trees.

Therefore, your premise, duckfucking and all, is incorrect.


Then how do you know it was the wrong season? Fig trees yielded fruit twice in a year, with one harvest being in spring. Pesach takes places in Nisan, which is in spring. So it was not the wrong season.

Though I don't think at all that Jesus cursed a fig tree and it withered, but it just shows that this argument is in dire need of being thought through some more. The passage was likely intended to be a premonition of the rejection and execution of Jesus in Jerusalem.

The problem with these interpretations, is that apologists can interpret anything as meaningful of anything.

It might be a premonition of Barney the Purple Dinosaur.


First of all, you did not respond to my contradiction of your claim that it was the wrong season. Both Pesach and the first fig harvest of the year are in spring.

Then the problem with your example is that Barney doesn't appear in the gospel or existed in the context it was written. The same goes for a great deal of "anything" so I think you need to specify your objection a little.
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Re: Jesus killed children

#56  Postby Shrunk » Jan 05, 2012 3:15 pm

Animavore wrote:He also killed fig trees :o


Interesting, that. That anecdote is along the same themes as those described in the OP: Jesus gets pissed off and impulsively smites something dead thru his magical powers. But since this one only involved a tree, it managed to make it into the canonical texts. Maybe?
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Re: Jesus killed children

#57  Postby nunnington » Jan 05, 2012 3:20 pm

I think also Barney does not appear in the Hebrew Bible, whereas the fig and the fig-tree are quite common symbols. Thus, Hosea, 9: 10: "I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the first-ripe in the fig-tree in the beginning."

I think it is reasonable to assume that a Jewish audience would be fairly conversant with the basic tropes of Jewish rhetoric.

GakuseiDon has also shown quite neatly how the two 'ends' of the fig-tree story frame the story of the visit to Jerusalem, and the overturning of the tables in the temple. Thus it seems reasonable to see it as a rhetorical framing device; Israel is a busted flush, and requires new grafting, new plants, ('I am the vine'), and new fruit.
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Re: Jesus killed children

#58  Postby trubble76 » Jan 05, 2012 3:24 pm

I would have thought that a symbolic story involving one of the christians gods would have been more in keeping with the whole "Thou shalt not kill" ethos if it had used a different method of imparting the moral of the story. Perhaps the omniscience was turned off at that point?
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Re: Jesus killed children

#59  Postby John P. M. » Jan 05, 2012 3:24 pm

Thanks IgnorantiaNescia.

Back to the story. From the text, it doesn't seem like the disciples have a clue what this was all about, if it was meant to be a parable. And Jesus isn't keen on explaining it either. Instead, when they marvel at the sight of the tree, he tells them that they too can do things like that, and beyond, if only they have enough faith. Then again, his disciples are sometimes portrayed as being a bit dense, so perhaps he didn't bother this time around. But I have to say - had I been there, I doubt I would have connected it to the lacking faith and diminishing position of Israel either. :think:
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Re: Jesus killed children

#60  Postby Dudely » Jan 05, 2012 3:31 pm

IgnorantiaNescia wrote:
GakuseiDon wrote:
The text goes:

1. (Mark 11:1-11) Jesus goes to Jerusalem. People cheer and call out "Hosanna!" --> Jerusalem appears inviting, with an appearance of ready to accept Jesus as king.
2. (Mark 11:12-14) Jesus is hungry and sees a fig tree covered with leaves --> the fig tree is inviting, with an appearance of having fruit even though it wasn't the season for fruit.
3. (Mark 11:12-14) But the fig tree, despite appearances, does not have fruit --> the fig tree is deceptive!
4. (Mark 11:15-18) Jesus goes into Jerusalem and overturns the tables in the Temple. Despite the friendly welcome earlier when people are shouting "Hosanna!", the elders plot to kill Jesus --> Jerusalem is deceptive!
5. (Mark 11:19-20) After leaving Jerusalem, the disciples notice that the fig tree has eventually withered.

If the passage is symbolic, then it seems to point towards the eventual fate of Jerusalem and its elders.


Do you mean with the eventual fate the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 or just the rejection of Jesus by the elders and Jerusalem? If the first one is right, that would establish that gMark is written after the destruction of Jerusalem (within the usual margins given for Mark), but the second one seems also a valid interpretation.


Mark was written by an unknown Christian (possibly in Syria), in AD 70- shortly after the destruction of the second temple. It was, in fact, written partly BECAUSE of the destruction of Jerusalem.

Interestingly, this makes it the first of the gospels. It is likely that the individuals who wrote Matthew and Luke did so after reading Mark.
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