Jesus said...

Sermon on the Mount

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Jesus said...

#141  Postby Agrippina » Apr 04, 2015 6:02 am

Skinny Puppy wrote:
Agrippina wrote:On the idea that Jesus was allowed to cancel the old laws, because he came to fulfil those laws.

There are two issues. The one is that Jesus is supposed to be "God on earth" in other words, he impregnated Mary with himself, so that he could live incognito among humans and then sacrifice himself to himself so that people who appreciate the sacrifice can be allowed to enter the kingdom of heaven.

<Snip>

That brings back memories of when I put god on trial and you came with a new (spunky) hat each day of the trial.{/quote]
I felt compelled, in the spirit of Easter to charge God with deliberately setting his son up for murder.


See the last page here.

The second issue is that in the giving of that law, the Jews are also told that those laws are in place for all time. They are unchangeable.


Yes, since they don't accept Jesus they are bound to the law.

Nope, if Christians use Leviticus to defend their bigotry against homosexuals, then they have to comply with all the other laws as well, otherwise that's just cherry-picking.

Except, this isn't true, because it says in the Bible, that only 144,000 men "undefiled by women" (Rev 14) will go there. Not anyone who goes to church, does penance, or whatever their church's version of confession is, says they're sorry and they won't do it again, then go about preaching to people who know better about how sinful they are, but only priests, i.e. the ones who actually keep to their vows of celibacy as far as women are concerned, and only 144,000 of them, will get there. So what's the point?


Everyone has the potential to go to heaven. Billions if time permits otherwise the message of Jesus would be pointless. I wish I had the time right now to get into it, but the mafia game is taking up most of my free time. So on this point we disagree. (Here's a plug for our mafia game.)

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/mafia/pirates-mafia-4-t49051.html


Nope, Revelation 14 from verse 1 says:

Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless...


See the bolded bits. If Christians can cherry-pick one law from Leviticus to follow, i,e:

Lev. 18:22
‘You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." (NASB)
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." (ESV, NKJV)
Clearly, the Old Testament condemns homosexuality. What else does it mean when it says "you shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female"? The term "lie with" here refers to sexual intercourse in the phrase "lie with a male as one lies with a female." It is an abomination...
Lev. 20:13
"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them." (NASB)
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." (ESV)
The word "detestable" is the same Hebrew word found in Lev. 18:22, "abomination."

https://carm.org/leviticus-18-22

There can be no doubt that the Old Testament condemns homosexuality as a detestable act worthy of death.

There are 612 other laws that they also cherry-pick to suit their particular bigotry.

They choose to ignore the ones about disobedient children, except to claim that the Bible says they should hit them with a rod (Proverbs 13:24) , when it clearly says they should be stoned:
Deuteronomy 21:18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard. 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.


But that's not allowed in modern law, so they don't bother with that one.

So I'm going to use Revelation's chapter as my "cherry-pick" for who gets into heaven. Here's a list of the verses that speak of heaven. I'm working on something new now, so I'll analyse those verses in that work. Too much for this forum I think.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/heaven
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Re: Jesus said...

#142  Postby wunksta » Apr 04, 2015 8:56 am

Agrippina wrote:
So how bad is this guy Satan exactly? :roll:


IIRC, Satan was always considered an agent of God directly. Someone whose task was to deliberately tempt mankind and lead him astray. It was only in Christianity that the idea of him becoming some renegade angel came into mythology, most likely based on Isaiah 14:12 (which was referencing a specific person, not Satan) and Revelation and the later extra-canon works like Paradise Lost and Dante's Inferno.
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Re: Jesus said...

#143  Postby Zwaarddijk » Apr 04, 2015 9:12 am

wunksta wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
So how bad is this guy Satan exactly? :roll:


IIRC, Satan was always considered an agent of God directly. Someone whose task was to deliberately tempt mankind and lead him astray. It was only in Christianity that the idea of him becoming some renegade angel came into mythology, most likely based on Isaiah 14:12 (which was referencing a specific person, not Satan) and Revelation and the later extra-canon works like Paradise Lost and Dante's Inferno.

Again, this seems to have been a pre-Christian development in some intertestamental Judaisms, i.e. Essenism.
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Re: Jesus said...

#144  Postby Zwaarddijk » Apr 04, 2015 9:14 am

Agrippina wrote:
There are 612 other laws that they also cherry-pick to suit their particular bigotry.

I would suggest you stop using the number 613 for the number of laws in the Torah. Yes, Jewish tradition has it that there are 613 laws in the Torah. Yet different rabbis disagree on which to count twice and which to count as aspects of some single commandment, etc. There's probably "about 580-640" or somesuch. Anyways, go and count them, you won't find 613.
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Re: Jesus said...

#145  Postby wunksta » Apr 04, 2015 9:25 am

Zwaarddijk wrote:
Again, this seems to have been a pre-Christian development in some intertestamental Judaisms, i.e. Essenism.


What do you mean "again"?

And are you saying that the concept of Satan being a rebel angel existed before Christianity?
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Re: Jesus said...

#146  Postby Agrippina » Apr 04, 2015 9:38 am

wunksta wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
So how bad is this guy Satan exactly? :roll:


IIRC, Satan was always considered an agent of God directly. Someone whose task was to deliberately tempt mankind and lead him astray. It was only in Christianity that the idea of him becoming some renegade angel came into mythology, most likely based on Isaiah 14:12 (which was referencing a specific person, not Satan) and Revelation and the later extra-canon works like Paradise Lost and Dante's Inferno.

I agree, however, my arguments have always been against the Bible itself, and the people who've told me, throughout my life, that I should "read the Bible."

I've read other works that talk about evil spirits, and the existence of "bad" gods, but they don't appear in this one anthology, so my arguments are only against those appearances and the people who claim that "the Bible" says he was a bad guy.

I've shown that it doesn't. The guy carries out an instruction given by God to inflict Job with boils, it's not a big deal, boils are not the worst he can do. God killed off the entire human race and all the world's animals, that measures up as a lot worse than a few boils, inciting people to skim money off the top of that belonging to the church, or telling David to do something bad.

The bad guy in the God story, is God himself. Satan is merely as you say, an "agent" of God. He acts on instruction from God, and without God, Satan wouldn't exist. (He doesn't neither does God, but for the sake of argument) If God hadn't been created, neither would Satan.
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Re: Jesus said...

#147  Postby wunksta » Apr 04, 2015 9:47 am

Agrippina wrote:
The bad guy in the God story, is God himself. Satan is merely as you say, an "agent" of God. He acts on instruction from God, and without God, Satan wouldn't exist. (He doesn't neither does God, but for the sake of argument) If God hadn't been created, neither would Satan.


Totally, not disagreeing with you lol

Just making a point that people who blame things on Satan forget that Satan was considered to be working for God in the first place, so everything goes back to God, as you point out.
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Re: Jesus said...

#148  Postby Agrippina » Apr 04, 2015 9:58 am

Zwaarddijk wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
There are 612 other laws that they also cherry-pick to suit their particular bigotry.

I would suggest you stop using the number 613 for the number of laws in the Torah. Yes, Jewish tradition has it that there are 613 laws in the Torah. Yet different rabbis disagree on which to count twice and which to count as aspects of some single commandment, etc. There's probably "about 580-640" or somesuch. Anyways, go and count them, you won't find 613.


I'm working off Maimonides list. It contains 613 laws, and in the context I'm using it, i.e. taken from the Bible, it fits.
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Re: Jesus said...

#149  Postby jinxu » Apr 04, 2015 11:40 am

wunksta wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
The bad guy in the God story, is God himself. Satan is merely as you say, an "agent" of God. He acts on instruction from God, and without God, Satan wouldn't exist. (He doesn't neither does God, but for the sake of argument) If God hadn't been created, neither would Satan.


Totally, not disagreeing with you lol

Just making a point that people who blame things on Satan forget that Satan was considered to be working for God in the first place, so everything goes back to God, as you point out.


I was going to say something but your point nullifies what I would say except that though Satan is considered the enemy he is still subject to God's authority. But ultimately all arguments center around God creating and allowing Satan to do what he does.
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Re: Jesus said...

#150  Postby Agrippina » Apr 04, 2015 1:22 pm

jinxu wrote:
wunksta wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
The bad guy in the God story, is God himself. Satan is merely as you say, an "agent" of God. He acts on instruction from God, and without God, Satan wouldn't exist. (He doesn't neither does God, but for the sake of argument) If God hadn't been created, neither would Satan.


Totally, not disagreeing with you lol

Just making a point that people who blame things on Satan forget that Satan was considered to be working for God in the first place, so everything goes back to God, as you point out.


I was going to say something but your point nullifies what I would say except that though Satan is considered the enemy he is still subject to God's authority. But ultimately all arguments center around God creating and allowing Satan to do what he does.


Exactly, if God created everything, then he also created Satan, therefore ultimately whatever Satan does is God's fault.
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Re: Jesus said...

#151  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 04, 2015 1:54 pm

Skinny Puppy wrote:
jinxu wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Mark Twain


My point exactly =P. He's also the man who claims that quitting smoking is easy because he does it many times a day :lol: . I love Mark Twain, though I hated that my mom made me read his books in 1st grade.


Have you read Letters From The Earth?

http://www.online-literature.com/twain/letters-from-the-earth/


Nope.

It is now on my phone. I use a Kobo app.

Thx :thumbup:
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Re: Jesus said...

#152  Postby Zwaarddijk » Apr 04, 2015 3:25 pm

Agrippina wrote:
Zwaarddijk wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
There are 612 other laws that they also cherry-pick to suit their particular bigotry.

I would suggest you stop using the number 613 for the number of laws in the Torah. Yes, Jewish tradition has it that there are 613 laws in the Torah. Yet different rabbis disagree on which to count twice and which to count as aspects of some single commandment, etc. There's probably "about 580-640" or somesuch. Anyways, go and count them, you won't find 613.


I'm working off Maimonides list. It contains 613 laws, and in the context I'm using it, i.e. taken from the Bible, it fits.

You do realize why that doesn't still answer my objection, don't you?
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Re: Jesus said...

#153  Postby Zwaarddijk » Apr 04, 2015 3:29 pm

wunksta wrote:
Zwaarddijk wrote:
Again, this seems to have been a pre-Christian development in some intertestamental Judaisms, i.e. Essenism.


What do you mean "again"?

And are you saying that the concept of Satan being a rebel angel existed before Christianity?

Yes; "again" as in I've previously pointed out a concept that predates Christianity that was mentioned here as if Christianity invented it (viz. 'eternal hell'). The sects in Judaism with which The Book of Enoch originates probably held views of a 'fallen' Satan that was God's opponent, as well as the idea of an eternal hell probably as much as a century or two before Christianity appeared.
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Re: Jesus said...

#154  Postby wunksta » Apr 04, 2015 3:46 pm

Zwaarddijk wrote:
wunksta wrote:
Zwaarddijk wrote:
Again, this seems to have been a pre-Christian development in some intertestamental Judaisms, i.e. Essenism.


What do you mean "again"?

And are you saying that the concept of Satan being a rebel angel existed before Christianity?

Yes; "again" as in I've previously pointed out a concept that predates Christianity that was mentioned here as if Christianity invented it (viz. 'eternal hell').


Doesn't look like you pointed it out in this thread and I don't ever remember speaking to you about this concept.

'Eternal hel'l as in being punished for eternity didn't exist as a concept in the Judaic beliefs afaik (and doesn't really exist in the Christian beliefs except through misinterpretation), but please feel free to provide a reference.


The sects in Judaism with which The Book of Enoch originates probably held views of a 'fallen' Satan that was God's opponent, as well as the idea of an eternal hell probably as much as a century or two before Christianity appeared.


That's the problem. Satan isn't mentioned in the book of Enoch. The idea that Satan is Azazel doesn't make sense. If he was imprisoned, how could he have tempted Jesus and tormented Job? Why would God refer to him with a different name? Furthermore, there is nothing in the book of Enoch that references Azazel being an opponent or rebelling against God. His only crime was that he wanted relations with humans which created giants that tormented God's creation.

If you can provide any references from pre-Christianity that make a connection, that would be great but if not then it's all conjecture.
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Re: Jesus said...

#155  Postby Agrippina » Apr 05, 2015 5:56 am

Zwaarddijk wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
Zwaarddijk wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
There are 612 other laws that they also cherry-pick to suit their particular bigotry.

I would suggest you stop using the number 613 for the number of laws in the Torah. Yes, Jewish tradition has it that there are 613 laws in the Torah. Yet different rabbis disagree on which to count twice and which to count as aspects of some single commandment, etc. There's probably "about 580-640" or somesuch. Anyways, go and count them, you won't find 613.


I'm working off Maimonides list. It contains 613 laws, and in the context I'm using it, i.e. taken from the Bible, it fits.

You do realize why that doesn't still answer my objection, don't you?


I don't care to answer your nitpicking.

See, 613 laws. If you think your atheist/christian outlook will change the minds of orthodox rabbis please be my guest.

If you're looking for something to nitpick about regarding Christianity, I suggest you take a look at this author's work.
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Re: Jesus said...

#156  Postby RealityRules » Apr 05, 2015 8:47 am

.
Lataster, Raphael "Questioning the Plausibility of Jesus Ahistoricity Theories—A Brief PseudoBayesian
Metacritique of the Sources." Intermountain West Journal of Religious Studies 6, no. 1 (2015).
http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/imwjournal/vol6/iss1/5

Conclusion
None of the sources used to establish Jesus’ historicity or to provide authentic historical material
regarding Jesus’ sayings and deeds are beyond scrutiny. All of the sources offer multiple challenges to
historians. Many of the sources show clear signs of allegory, interpolation, fraud, myth, and subjectivity ...

.
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Re: Jesus said...

#157  Postby Zwaarddijk » Apr 05, 2015 8:48 am

Agrippina wrote:
Zwaarddijk wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
Zwaarddijk wrote:
I would suggest you stop using the number 613 for the number of laws in the Torah. Yes, Jewish tradition has it that there are 613 laws in the Torah. Yet different rabbis disagree on which to count twice and which to count as aspects of some single commandment, etc. There's probably "about 580-640" or somesuch. Anyways, go and count them, you won't find 613.


I'm working off Maimonides list. It contains 613 laws, and in the context I'm using it, i.e. taken from the Bible, it fits.

You do realize why that doesn't still answer my objection, don't you?


I don't care to answer your nitpicking.

See, 613 laws. If you think your atheist/christian outlook will change the minds of orthodox rabbis please be my guest.

If you're looking for something to nitpick about regarding Christianity, I suggest you take a look at this author's work.

But we're not fucking discussing orthodox beliefs about the Bible, we're discussing the Bible. There's a fucking difference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_comman ... fficulties <- there, you'll find ORTHODOX RABBIS dissenting from the idea that there's 613

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_comman ... mmandments <- and there you find several different lists of 613 SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT commandments. If you were to add them all together, you'd get something like 630.
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Re: Jesus said...

#158  Postby Agrippina » Apr 05, 2015 9:27 am

Zwaarddijk wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
Zwaarddijk wrote:
Agrippina wrote:

I'm working off Maimonides list. It contains 613 laws, and in the context I'm using it, i.e. taken from the Bible, it fits.

You do realize why that doesn't still answer my objection, don't you?


I don't care to answer your nitpicking.

See, 613 laws. If you think your atheist/christian outlook will change the minds of orthodox rabbis please be my guest.

If you're looking for something to nitpick about regarding Christianity, I suggest you take a look at this author's work.

But we're not fucking discussing orthodox beliefs about the Bible, we're discussing the Bible. There's a fucking difference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_comman ... fficulties <- there, you'll find ORTHODOX RABBIS dissenting from the idea that there's 613

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_comman ... mmandments <- and there you find several different lists of 613 SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT commandments. If you were to add them all together, you'd get something like 630.


Get a grip, you'll burst a blood vessel. Sheesh so much anger over a book of myths. :roll:
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Re: Jesus said...

#159  Postby Agrippina » Apr 05, 2015 9:38 am

Just because I'm a little bored with Zwaardijk carping about the figure of 613, I googled, "how many laws are there in the old testament" and guess what came up on the top page. That's right 613 laws. Sigh.

And this comment:

There is no single definitive list that explicates the 613 commandments. Lists differ, for example, in how they interpret passages in the Torah that may be read as dealing with several cases under a single law or several separate laws.


That's right. It's all a matter of interpretation. There may be more, but there aren't less than 613. The "more" means that there are laws that are so similar that they can be ignored, and when Maimonides put his list together, he looked for the ones that were "unique" in the sense that he ignored duplicates.

He did what we use applications to do today, he did a search and left off the duplicates.

Please Zwaardijk, stop with the spamming and anger about my five years of analysing the Bible. If you don't want to read my book, I'm not going to give it to you. As simple as that. I'm not looking to change the world, and I'm not interested in bickering with anonymous people on the internet about something that is merely an amusement to keep me from becoming an old person who knits and watches TV all day. And why the hell am I explaining myself to an angry person who has nothing better to do than stroke his ego by fighting with other anonymous people on the internet.

Any more trolling about my list of laws, and I'll report you for spamming. You've made your point, now go and play in the sandpit, there's a good lad! :grin:
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Re: Jesus said...

#160  Postby THWOTH » Apr 05, 2015 11:08 am


!
GENERAL MODNOTE
OK guys. Time to drop the personal comments and refocus on the topic at hand.

:cheers:
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