Jesus said...

Sermon on the Mount

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Jesus said...

#161  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 05, 2015 11:40 am

Kids these days :lol:
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Re: Jesus said...

#162  Postby Skinny Puppy » Apr 05, 2015 3:39 pm

Aggi...

Do I get a copy of your book? :angel:
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Re: Jesus said...

#163  Postby Agrippina » Apr 05, 2015 4:53 pm

Skinny Puppy wrote:Aggi...

Do I get a copy of your book? :angel:


Of course Skinny. It's being edited at the moment, then I'm getting two very special people to read it first before I release it. :grin:
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Re: Jesus said...

#164  Postby Skinny Puppy » Apr 05, 2015 5:52 pm

Agrippina wrote:
Skinny Puppy wrote:Aggi...

Do I get a copy of your book? :angel:


Of course Skinny. It's being edited at the moment, then I'm getting two very special people to read it first before I release it. :grin:


Thanks so much! :thumbup:
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Re: Jesus said...

#165  Postby angelo » Apr 06, 2015 6:49 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:Mark Twain

Thank you Scot, you beat me to it. :smoke:
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Re: Jesus said...

#166  Postby wunksta » Apr 10, 2015 4:26 pm

Zwaarddijk wrote:
wunksta wrote:
Zwaarddijk wrote:
Again, this seems to have been a pre-Christian development in some intertestamental Judaisms, i.e. Essenism.


What do you mean "again"?

And are you saying that the concept of Satan being a rebel angel existed before Christianity?

Yes; "again" as in I've previously pointed out a concept that predates Christianity that was mentioned here as if Christianity invented it (viz. 'eternal hell'). The sects in Judaism with which The Book of Enoch originates probably held views of a 'fallen' Satan that was God's opponent, as well as the idea of an eternal hell probably as much as a century or two before Christianity appeared.


Where did you point this out? I looked through your previous posts and this was all I could find:



Zwaarddijk wrote:
Jesus is the chronologically speaking the earliest character in the Bible to teach an eternal hell



Zwaarddijk wrote:
Actually, most accounts of these things probably do stem from within the church, way after its formative years were long gone. If you're talking about *early* accounts thereof, well, there's probably some stuff borrowed from the big religions of Rome and Persia, but by and large, you won't find much of an idea of an eternal hell outside of Christianity prior to the appearance of Islam. Maybe some hints of it in Judaism even prior to Christianity, in fact, so it's not as if the idea is entirely outlandish to the sources of Christianity.

-Also, the idea of eternal suffering for rejecting God was also only introduced in the New Testament. As was the idea of Satan as a separate and malevolent entity, though that was very vaguely alluded to in the Old Testament. His origional meaning was simply "adversary", often used for physical enemies as well.

The idea of Satan as an adversary may come from Zoroastrian dualism - Good and Evil being at war and all that. However, eternal suffering kind of enters to some extent in OT texts: Daniel 12:2 "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt" at least suggests some kind of idea of a long-lasting punishment (although the wording in Hebrew is not as clear about the foreverness as the English wording is). Still, it's easy to see how such an idea may have been common in some circles of Judaism at the time of Jesus without needing to invoke other religions! There's also some hints at such beliefs in the Talmud, although those may be of later origin, from Zoroastrian influence as well, etc. However, no modern form of Zoroastrism has an eternal hell either, and afaict we don't really know that it had it in antiquity either.

My point is just that we have no reason to be certain that an eternal hell is a Christian divergence from 2nd Temple Judaism. Nor do we really have any reason to posit it as a necessarily external influence: it has had to appear somewhere, could just as well be the case that it appeared in Judaism or Christianity.

-In the book of Job, Satan was just another agent in God's service, a sort of "prosecutor" type.

Yes, and in Judaism, this is not disputed at all. Most varieties of Judaism don't care that much about Satan, as he ultimately is a servant of God. There's a story somewhere in ancient Jewish literature that when Satan tries to tempt someone and succeeds, he cries. (But when he tries to tempt someone and fails, he complains about being given impossible tasks.)


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Re: Jesus said...

#167  Postby angelo » Apr 12, 2015 7:18 am

Jesus said : bring me some plonk and some fish, oh, and a loaf of bread!
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Re: Jesus said...

#168  Postby John Platko » Apr 13, 2015 6:29 pm

angelo wrote:Jesus said : bring me some plonk and some fish, oh, and a loaf of bread!


Don't forget the olives. :nono:
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Re: Jesus said...

#169  Postby proudfootz » Apr 13, 2015 9:54 pm

Sadly for Mr J, the Romans took a dim view of his 'dine and dash' habits...
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Re: Jesus said...

#170  Postby angelo » Apr 15, 2015 8:07 am

John Platko wrote:
angelo wrote:Jesus said : bring me some plonk and some fish, oh, and a loaf of bread!


Don't forget the olives. :nono:

Olives? :scratch: Marinated how? With chilli and garlic in oil?
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Re: Jesus said...

#171  Postby RealityRules » Apr 15, 2015 8:19 am

Olive Oyl
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Re: Jesus said...

#172  Postby angelo » Apr 15, 2015 8:22 am

I could never see what Popeye saw in that very skinny titless broad! :)
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Re: Jesus said...

#173  Postby Alan B » Apr 15, 2015 11:19 am

This is getting seriously OT, now. :lol:

So far the theists haven't come up with anything serious to bring it back on track...

I wonder why? :think:
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Re: Jesus said...

#174  Postby angelo » Apr 15, 2015 11:35 am

Are there any theists here? :shock:
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Re: Jesus said...

#175  Postby Stein » Apr 30, 2015 10:19 pm

wunksta wrote:
Zwaarddijk wrote:
wunksta wrote:
Zwaarddijk wrote:
Again, this seems to have been a pre-Christian development in some intertestamental Judaisms, i.e. Essenism.


What do you mean "again"?

And are you saying that the concept of Satan being a rebel angel existed before Christianity?

Yes; "again" as in I've previously pointed out a concept that predates Christianity that was mentioned here as if Christianity invented it (viz. 'eternal hell'). The sects in Judaism with which The Book of Enoch originates probably held views of a 'fallen' Satan that was God's opponent, as well as the idea of an eternal hell probably as much as a century or two before Christianity appeared.


Where did you point this out? I looked through your previous posts and this was all I could find:



Zwaarddijk wrote:
Jesus is the chronologically speaking the earliest character in the Bible to teach an eternal hell



Zwaarddijk wrote:
Actually, most accounts of these things probably do stem from within the church, way after its formative years were long gone. If you're talking about *early* accounts thereof, well, there's probably some stuff borrowed from the big religions of Rome and Persia, but by and large, you won't find much of an idea of an eternal hell outside of Christianity prior to the appearance of Islam. Maybe some hints of it in Judaism even prior to Christianity, in fact, so it's not as if the idea is entirely outlandish to the sources of Christianity.

-Also, the idea of eternal suffering for rejecting God was also only introduced in the New Testament. As was the idea of Satan as a separate and malevolent entity, though that was very vaguely alluded to in the Old Testament. His origional meaning was simply "adversary", often used for physical enemies as well.

The idea of Satan as an adversary may come from Zoroastrian dualism - Good and Evil being at war and all that. However, eternal suffering kind of enters to some extent in OT texts: Daniel 12:2 "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt" at least suggests some kind of idea of a long-lasting punishment (although the wording in Hebrew is not as clear about the foreverness as the English wording is). Still, it's easy to see how such an idea may have been common in some circles of Judaism at the time of Jesus without needing to invoke other religions! There's also some hints at such beliefs in the Talmud, although those may be of later origin, from Zoroastrian influence as well, etc. However, no modern form of Zoroastrism has an eternal hell either, and afaict we don't really know that it had it in antiquity either.

My point is just that we have no reason to be certain that an eternal hell is a Christian divergence from 2nd Temple Judaism. Nor do we really have any reason to posit it as a necessarily external influence: it has had to appear somewhere, could just as well be the case that it appeared in Judaism or Christianity.

-In the book of Job, Satan was just another agent in God's service, a sort of "prosecutor" type.

Yes, and in Judaism, this is not disputed at all. Most varieties of Judaism don't care that much about Satan, as he ultimately is a servant of God. There's a story somewhere in ancient Jewish literature that when Satan tries to tempt someone and succeeds, he cries. (But when he tries to tempt someone and fails, he complains about being given impossible tasks.)




There is, at least, one reference to hell more than five centuries before Jesus: ca. 600 b.c.e., the pioneering Indian atheist, Brhaspati, apparently wrote that hell is simply what unlucky mortals go through here on Earth. It is not, he maintains, an abode for the dead, since there is, he maintains, no afterlife.

From this, we can infer that the notion of hell was already a construct of ancient Hindu culture at that time.

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Re: Jesus said...

#176  Postby Stein » May 07, 2015 7:16 am

* bump *
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Re: Jesus said...

#177  Postby Agrippina » May 07, 2015 8:14 am

Daniel speaks of "everlasting contempt" Dan 12:2
Is 14:15 says "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."
The OT doesn't specifically say "hell" but it seems apologetics interpret Daniel's "contempt" to be hell."

It would be interesting to know where the writers of the Gospels got the idea of eternal hell that they put the words in Jesus's mouth. Could it indicate knowledge of Stein's Hindu's opinion?
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Re: Jesus said...

#178  Postby Alan B » May 07, 2015 9:01 am

Stein wrote:* bump *

I read it earlier. :naughty:
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Re: Jesus said...

#179  Postby Zwaarddijk » May 07, 2015 9:20 am

Agrippina wrote:Daniel speaks of "everlasting contempt" Dan 12:2
Is 14:15 says "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."
The OT doesn't specifically say "hell" but it seems apologetics interpret Daniel's "contempt" to be hell."

It would be interesting to know where the writers of the Gospels got the idea of eternal hell that they put the words in Jesus's mouth. Could it indicate knowledge of Stein's Hindu's opinion?

Well, a more clearly everlasting hell can be found in intertestamental literature, so it's clear the idea had entered Judaism during the last centuries BCE. A reasonable source for this could be the Zoroastrians, who, as far as I can tell, did have the idea of an eternal hell rather early. Zoroastrianism and Hinduism are related the same way Iranian languages and Indo-European Indian languages are related, i.e. the religions and the languages are descendants of a shared ancestral religion|language. Whether the idea had entered Zoroastrianism as a retention of older Indo-European beliefs, or as a horizontal transfer from eastern neighbours might be hard to tell, of course.
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Re: Jesus said...

#180  Postby Agrippina » May 07, 2015 10:40 am

Yes. :thumbup:
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