Jesus vs. Osiris

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

Moderators: Blip, amok, DarthHelmet86, Matt8819

Jesus vs. Osiris

#1  Postby tnjrp » Mar 02, 2010 8:51 am

Having just read the informative Jeesus vs. Mithra thread I was inspired to ask about the also-quite-often-touted connection between the myths of Jeesus & Osiris (with the handling of any other Egyptian connections optional). I seem to recall there was a discussion on that one on the RDF but can't arsed to look and besides, one likes to "phis" for content on this newfangled forum thingy in any case... So, fire away you more knowledgeable folks!
The dog, the dog, he's at it again!
tnjrp
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 3587
Age: 48
Male

Finland (fi)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Jesus vs. Osiris

#2  Postby Arcanyn » Mar 02, 2010 9:57 am

Jesus and Osiris both died and were resurrected. Osiris became ruler of the afterlife after he was resurrected, and Jesus ascended to heaven to have a similar role.

That's about all they have in common.
Power doesn't corrupt, it reveals. Only when someone is free from constraints and consequences do they show their true character.

Sign the petition for the William Lane Craig/David Icke debate here:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/craigickedebate/signatures
User avatar
Arcanyn
 
Posts: 1037
Age: 29
Male

Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Jesus vs. Osiris

#3  Postby TimONeill » Mar 02, 2010 10:12 am

Arcanyn wrote:Jesus and Osiris both died and were resurrected. Osiris became ruler of the afterlife after he was resurrected, and Jesus ascended to heaven to have a similar role.

That's about all they have in common.


And even there the "similarities" aren't very similar once you look at them. Osiris is murdered by Set and his body dismembered. Isis finds the pieces of his body, except his penis (which is eaten by fish), and puts them back together and then Osiris revives in the underworld and becomes its king. He is not crucified, he is not buried in a tomb and he doesn't rise again in this world or ascend into heaven.

You really have to try hard to make any of that story into any kind of parallel to the Jesus story.
Homo sum: humani nil a me alienum puto
"I am human: nothing that is human is alien to me."

Publius Terentius Afer

Armarium Magnum - Book Reviews on Ancient and Medieval History, Atheism and Philosophy
User avatar
TimONeill
 
Posts: 2214
Male

Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Jesus vs. Osiris

#4  Postby tnjrp » Mar 02, 2010 10:21 am

Isis finds the pieces of his body, except his penis (which is eaten by fish), and puts them back together
This is incidentally also a theme found in Finnish mythology tho in our (official) version, Lemminkäinen is reconstructed completely (and I'm sure he'd killed himself if his penis had been eaten by fish :tongue:) and he resurrects in the "normal" world (insofar as the mythical Kaleva is normal).

Anyhow, on the subject itself I'm not entirely sure if the general idea is to make the entire Osiris story parallel to Jesus' but rather to fit out and if necessary to shoehorn the similar details in them to bolster up the case that the mythology surrounding Jesus borrows from other sources :ask:
The dog, the dog, he's at it again!
tnjrp
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 3587
Age: 48
Male

Finland (fi)
Print view this post

Re: Jesus vs. Osiris

#5  Postby TimONeill » Mar 02, 2010 10:28 am

tnjrp wrote:Anyhow, on the subject itself I'm not entirely sure if the general idea is to make the entire Osiris story parallel to Jesus' but rather to fit out and if necessary to shoehorn the similar details in them to bolster up the case that the mythology surrounding Jesus borrows from other sources :ask:


Exactly. So anything happening to a god or hero after their death is classed as "resurrection", even if (as in Osiris' case) it's nothing of the sort. Ditto for any kind of miraculous birth story being classed as a "virgin birth", even if sex is involved and, therfore, virginity clearly isn't. And any followers or attendants suddenly get reclassified as "disciples" and their number magically becomes 12, even if there are actually 2, 4 or 15 of them.

Near enough is good enough in this "parallels with Jesus" game, and a bit of fiddling with words, numbers and details is the key to the whole thing. Never let the facts get in the way of a nice, silly New Age idea. After all, if it's on the internet it must be true, right?

:crazy:
Homo sum: humani nil a me alienum puto
"I am human: nothing that is human is alien to me."

Publius Terentius Afer

Armarium Magnum - Book Reviews on Ancient and Medieval History, Atheism and Philosophy
User avatar
TimONeill
 
Posts: 2214
Male

Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Jesus vs. Osiris

#6  Postby Moonwatcher » Mar 02, 2010 9:49 pm

TimONeill wrote:
tnjrp wrote:Anyhow, on the subject itself I'm not entirely sure if the general idea is to make the entire Osiris story parallel to Jesus' but rather to fit out and if necessary to shoehorn the similar details in them to bolster up the case that the mythology surrounding Jesus borrows from other sources :ask:


Exactly. So anything happening to a god or hero after their death is classed as "resurrection", even if (as in Osiris' case) it's nothing of the sort. Ditto for any kind of miraculous birth story being classed as a "virgin birth", even if sex is involved and, therfore, virginity clearly isn't. And any followers or attendants suddenly get reclassified as "disciples" and their number magically becomes 12, even if there are actually 2, 4 or 15 of them.

Near enough is good enough in this "parallels with Jesus" game, and a bit of fiddling with words, numbers and details is the key to the whole thing. Never let the facts get in the way of a nice, silly New Age idea. After all, if it's on the internet it must be true, right?

:crazy:


First things first. Glad to see you are here. I would have missed your insights on myth and your debunking the attempts to compare Pagan myths and Christian myths.

As I mentioned once over on that other board, even E. Wallis Budge never claimed the Jesus myth borrowed from the Osiris myth though he did say that the Egyptians were well-prepared to accept Christianity because of the Osiris myth. In fact, accepting the Jesus myth likely freed them from all the drudgery of mummification and rituals while feeling they were latching onto something similar in terms of meeting their needs regarding belief in an afterlife.
"When [the Kalam Cosmological Argument is] used, it's in bad faith. [Theists] KNOW they exempt their god and they KNEW they were going to do this when they began to use the argument."

-Bucky Ball

[edited to fit space requirements]
User avatar
Moonwatcher
 
Posts: 1904
Age: 56
Male

Print view this post

Re: Jesus vs. Osiris

#7  Postby Tangerine Dream » Mar 03, 2010 2:51 am

Jesus and Mithra shared the following characteristics:

· Both were born of virgins

· Both had shepherds adoring them at birth

· Both had twelve followers

· Both had ritual baptisms

· Both had ritual communion and used wafers in their rituals

· Both claimed Sunday to be a Holy Day

· Both believed in the immortality of the soul and the resurrection of the dead

· Both performed miracles

· Both were considered mankind's savior

· Both were known as “The Light of the world” AND…GET READY FOR THE BIGGEE……

· Both were born on December 25!

I know my dearest TimOneiil is going to tear me apart. I am very glad you are here Tim . Without you there is no faith and religion :cheers:
If shit was worth something, poor people would be born with no asshole.

"If Jesus had been killed twenty years ago, Catholic school children would be wearing little electric chairs around their necks instead of crosses."
Lenny Bruce
User avatar
Tangerine Dream
 
Posts: 11157
Age: 4
Male

Djibouti (dj)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


#8  Postby atrasicarius » Mar 03, 2010 2:54 am

At the OP: I think you mixed up your myths. It's Jesus and Horus that are similar, not Jesus and Osiris IIRC.
The only things that are infinite are the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe.
Einstein

In a society that has abolished all adventures, the only adventure left is to abolish society.
The Black Iron Prison
User avatar
atrasicarius
 
Posts: 1090
Age: 23
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Jesus vs. Osiris

#9  Postby TimONeill » Mar 03, 2010 3:01 am

Tangerine Dream wrote:Jesus and Mithra shared the following characteristics:

· Both were born of virgins

· Both had shepherds adoring them at birth

· Both had twelve followers

· Both had ritual baptisms

· Both had ritual communion and used wafers in their rituals

· Both claimed Sunday to be a Holy Day

· Both believed in the immortality of the soul and the resurrection of the dead

· Both performed miracles

· Both were considered mankind's savior

· Both were known as “The Light of the world” AND…GET READY FOR THE BIGGEE……

· Both were born on December 25!


I'm not sure if this post was meant to be taken seriously, especially since Jerome has already debunked all these errors in his thread on Mithras here. And even Wikipedia shows that most of the above is a load of crap.

Why do people keep posting this nonsense?
Homo sum: humani nil a me alienum puto
"I am human: nothing that is human is alien to me."

Publius Terentius Afer

Armarium Magnum - Book Reviews on Ancient and Medieval History, Atheism and Philosophy
User avatar
TimONeill
 
Posts: 2214
Male

Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Jesus vs. Osiris

#10  Postby atrasicarius » Mar 03, 2010 3:14 am

TimONeill wrote:
Tangerine Dream wrote:Jesus and Mithra shared the following characteristics:

· Both were born of virgins

· Both had shepherds adoring them at birth

· Both had twelve followers

· Both had ritual baptisms

· Both had ritual communion and used wafers in their rituals

· Both claimed Sunday to be a Holy Day

· Both believed in the immortality of the soul and the resurrection of the dead

· Both performed miracles

· Both were considered mankind's savior

· Both were known as “The Light of the world” AND…GET READY FOR THE BIGGEE……

· Both were born on December 25!


I'm not sure if this post was meant to be taken seriously, especially since Jerome has already debunked all these errors in his thread on Mithras here. And even Wikipedia shows that most of the above is a load of crap.

Why do people keep posting this nonsense?


*cough*Zeitgeist*cough*
The only things that are infinite are the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe.
Einstein

In a society that has abolished all adventures, the only adventure left is to abolish society.
The Black Iron Prison
User avatar
atrasicarius
 
Posts: 1090
Age: 23
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

#11  Postby jerome » Mar 03, 2010 3:39 am

http://ct.grenme.com/index.php/Horus-Jesus_Correlations

It's nearly 4am and i need my bed, so there ya go :) Grenme does it very well!

j x
Yours sincerely, Jerome -- a threat to reason & science

I am an Anglican Prejudice declared - My blog: http://jerome23.wordpress.com/
User avatar
jerome
 
Name: CJ
Posts: 2033
Age: 44
Male

Country: UK
Denmark (dk)
Print view this post

Re:

#12  Postby TimONeill » Mar 03, 2010 3:42 am

atrasicarius wrote:It's Jesus and Horus that are similar, not Jesus and Osiris IIRC.


Really? How? And please don't give me that garbage about Horus having "twelve disciples" or being baptised by "Anup the Baptiser" or any of the usual fantasy.
Homo sum: humani nil a me alienum puto
"I am human: nothing that is human is alien to me."

Publius Terentius Afer

Armarium Magnum - Book Reviews on Ancient and Medieval History, Atheism and Philosophy
User avatar
TimONeill
 
Posts: 2214
Male

Australia (au)
Print view this post

#13  Postby lordshipmayhem » Mar 03, 2010 3:43 am

The most easily debunked of these is "Jesus was born December 25th." Where is it written that Jesus was born December 25th?

Neither the Puritans of old nor the Seventh Day Adventists of today celebrate Christ's birthday as December 25th, for the same reason: Nowhere in the Bible does it say WHICH day Jesus was born. It's not that there's conflicting statements, it's that there is NO date specified.
"It is not science that is arrogant: science can be defined as ‘humility before the facts’ — it is those who refuse to submit to testing and make unsubstantiated claims that are arrogant. Arrogant and unjust." - Stephen Fry
User avatar
lordshipmayhem
 
Posts: 1514
Age: 53
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Re:

#14  Postby atrasicarius » Mar 03, 2010 3:51 am

TimONeill wrote:
atrasicarius wrote:It's Jesus and Horus that are similar, not Jesus and Osiris IIRC.


Really? How? And please don't give me that garbage about Horus having "twelve disciples" or being baptised by "Anup the Baptiser" or any of the usual fantasy.


I'm no expert on this subject at all. It's just that I've heard Jesus compared with Horus a fair amount, and I dont think I've ever heard Jesus compared with Osiris before. I'm vaguely familiar with the myth of Osiris, and I dont really see all that many similarities with Jesus except for the bit about being resurrected, which isnt exactly unique in mythology.
The only things that are infinite are the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe.
Einstein

In a society that has abolished all adventures, the only adventure left is to abolish society.
The Black Iron Prison
User avatar
atrasicarius
 
Posts: 1090
Age: 23
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Re:

#15  Postby TimONeill » Mar 03, 2010 4:23 am

atrasicarius wrote:I'm no expert on this subject at all. It's just that I've heard Jesus compared with Horus a fair amount


Then perhaps it would have been an idea to have simply said you’d heard this and ask if anyone knows if this is true, given the amount of total bullshit associated with this subject. Saying that “It's Jesus and Horus that are similar”, as though this is a fact, without checking this statement isn’t exactly “rational” or “skeptical”.

I get characteristically short-tempered with supposed “rationalists” who seem to accept any old crap they find lying around on the internet so long as it fits their prejudices about religion in general and Christianity in particular. Which means, over and over again, we find people perpetuating this tedious “Mithras/Jesus” and “Mithras/Horus” garbage when two minute’s checking would show that it’s a load of bollocks.
Homo sum: humani nil a me alienum puto
"I am human: nothing that is human is alien to me."

Publius Terentius Afer

Armarium Magnum - Book Reviews on Ancient and Medieval History, Atheism and Philosophy
User avatar
TimONeill
 
Posts: 2214
Male

Australia (au)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Jesus vs. Osiris

#16  Postby Tangerine Dream » Mar 03, 2010 4:33 am

Please your comments on this piece of information :smoke:

http://stupidevilbastard.com/2005/01/en ... _of_horus/

:scratch:
If shit was worth something, poor people would be born with no asshole.

"If Jesus had been killed twenty years ago, Catholic school children would be wearing little electric chairs around their necks instead of crosses."
Lenny Bruce
User avatar
Tangerine Dream
 
Posts: 11157
Age: 4
Male

Djibouti (dj)
Print view this post

Re: Re:

#17  Postby atrasicarius » Mar 03, 2010 4:55 am

TimONeill wrote:
atrasicarius wrote:I'm no expert on this subject at all. It's just that I've heard Jesus compared with Horus a fair amount


Then perhaps it would have been an idea to have simply said you’d heard this and ask if anyone knows if this is true, given the amount of total bullshit associated with this subject. Saying that “It's Jesus and Horus that are similar”, as though this is a fact, without checking this statement isn’t exactly “rational” or “skeptical”.

I get characteristically short-tempered with supposed “rationalists” who seem to accept any old crap they find lying around on the internet so long as it fits their prejudices about religion in general and Christianity in particular. Which means, over and over again, we find people perpetuating this tedious “Mithras/Jesus” and “Mithras/Horus” garbage when two minute’s checking would show that it’s a load of bollocks.


Alright, I suppose I should have said "supposed to be similar." My standards tend to drop a bit when I'm talking about subjects I dont really give a shit about and am too lazy to research thoroughly.
The only things that are infinite are the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe.
Einstein

In a society that has abolished all adventures, the only adventure left is to abolish society.
The Black Iron Prison
User avatar
atrasicarius
 
Posts: 1090
Age: 23
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Jesus vs. Osiris

#18  Postby TimONeill » Mar 03, 2010 5:56 am

Tangerine Dream wrote:Please your comments on this piece of information :smoke:

http://stupidevilbastard.com/2005/01/en ... _of_horus/

:scratch:


What can I say? That gets it right. That guy has done what any rationalist should do: checked the facts and seen if the claims are actually supported by evidence. This is a no brainer, but over and over again we have these crap-arsed New Age claims presented here as though they are unimpeached, A-grade historical fact. The truth is, no historian or Egyptologist takes any of this total nonsense seriously.

Yet we get this nonsense presented here as legitimate scholarship and we got it over at RD.net about once a month.

Rationalists?
Homo sum: humani nil a me alienum puto
"I am human: nothing that is human is alien to me."

Publius Terentius Afer

Armarium Magnum - Book Reviews on Ancient and Medieval History, Atheism and Philosophy
User avatar
TimONeill
 
Posts: 2214
Male

Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re:

#19  Postby tnjrp » Mar 03, 2010 6:41 am

atrasicarius wrote:At the OP: I think you mixed up your myths. It's Jesus and Horus that are similar, not Jesus and Osiris IIRC.
Actually, it was just over the weekend when I was specifically told that Osiris and Jesus myths share details... Specifically, one would think, the death and resurrection aspect thereof.

The Horus link provided above rather puts paid to "that other Egyptian deity" claims as well, of course.

Incidentally, I just found a claim on Wiki that Osiris' willy was assumed to have been eaten by his murderer Set. That's a lot yuckier than the idea it was nibbled at by fish :yuk:
The dog, the dog, he's at it again!
tnjrp
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 3587
Age: 48
Male

Finland (fi)
Print view this post

#20  Postby Mephistopheles » Mar 03, 2010 6:58 am

I've got a question for Tim.

Ignoring similarities and looking at the stories as a whole, were there any other ancient cults besides Christianity that formed around a specific god figure, with similar themes of "salvation," possibly even "rebirth?" I know that the "similarities" often found between Christianity and other ancient cults do not match up as perfectly as some would like to paint them (if indeed they exist at all), but I wonder if an argument can be made that the phenomenon of apotheosis and attribution of such themes are not unique to Christianity in that particular region and era.

Additionally, while I'm sure many agree with me that Zeitgeist was in a similar vein of bullshit, it does prompt an intriguing thought. Is there anything to suggest that maybe some of the symbology found in Christianity and other Mediterranean cults were adapted from older forms of sun-worship? And I don't mean this consciously, like "early Christians knew Jesus didn't exist and that the gospels are really a bunch of metaphors for astronomical phenomena," but that maybe simple things like the cross symbol and the celebration of the winter solstice just happened to weasel into their stories and culture by the mere virtue of being vestigial traditions from even earlier religions?

Just thinking out loud, I suppose.
User avatar
Mephistopheles
 
Posts: 298

United States (us)
Print view this post

Next

Return to Christianity

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest