Judaism vs Religions of the Time

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Judaism vs Religions of the Time

#21  Postby Zadocfish2 » Sep 28, 2017 8:18 pm

Wrong, again. When the angel stopped Abraham, he disobeyed God, since there is absolutely no evidence that this is what he wanted. That's the first occurence. The second, and third are these :


You accuse me of circular reasoning, and you bring this out? "Angels can disobey God. We know this because this angel went against God's orders by stopping the sacrifice. We know he went against God's will because this event proves that is possible."

The only other examples you give are from NT retroactive changes to OT interpretation. There was no "angelic rebellion" in Judaic mythology. You're moving the goalposts to Christianity; the "war between good and evil" aspects of Biblical teaching comes exclusively from later thought. The one in Job was doing his assigned job as a prosecutor, and the passage in Isaiah blatantly refers to a regular, earthly king.
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Re: Judaism vs Religions of the Time

#22  Postby pelfdaddy » Sep 29, 2017 2:28 am

Zadocfish,

The first thing I thought of when I read your opening was the code of the Babylonians which predates the law of Moses. It went into some detail about rape, including punishments for false accusations. One might even say that the Hammurabi code to which I refer was exceptionally sophisticated compared to the general barbarity of the surrounding cultures. However...

I think maybe the topic is a little out of phase with what is relevant. To be sure, it is an interesting subject, and of course there is nothing wrong with awarding due credit. The problem is that we are constantly confronted by this argument wielded by apologists whose real goal is not to praise the superiority of Mosaic law over other ancient statutes, but to convince their listeners that the Bible is the Word of God.

Non-believers are not ignorant of the things you point out; we just find that, from a modern perspective, the comparatively primitive nature of scripture only reveals that it is of entirely human origin. You don't seem to be disputing this.

Or are you?

Because, really...it's pretty lame to defend the Bible as God's own inspired text by claiming, "Hey! Look at all the crappy shit that went on back then! Bible. Not that bad." But that is what we constantly get. This is why your argument, while interesting and relevant in some historical contexts, hardly raises any eyebrows here.
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Re: Judaism vs Religions of the Time

#23  Postby aban57 » Sep 29, 2017 8:04 am

Zadocfish2 wrote:

The only other examples you give are from NT retroactive changes to OT interpretation.


And how do you know that ? How do you know that it's just an omission that's been corrected later on ? How do you know it's not it's not something that was willingly kept away at first, then revealed ?

My point here is that the Bible is not trustworthy. Neither from the Judaism view, nor from the Christian view. Just like some texts have been taken away from being canonic because they didn't fit the message religious authorities wanted to pass at the moment (Jesus' relationship for example), it's perfectly possible that some stories that didn't fit the Judaic vision were removed.

I understand your point, and pelfdaddy explained why you get those reactions you get pretty well. If you wanted to speak only about Judaism, then the Bible isn't the text you should have taken as reference. One of the main problems we have with (Christian) believers, is that they build their belief on a small part of their book. Yet they still consider it sacred a a whole. That's a major flaw in their argumentation. By trying to justify some rules set in the OT without accepting what's said about them in the NT, you play the exact same game.
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