Moses

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Moses

#21  Postby Agrippina » May 24, 2015 6:33 am

NamelessFaceless wrote:I recently read a most excellent book called Who Wrote the Bible by Richard Elliot Friedman. It's a detailed explanation of the Documentary Hypothesis and Friedman gives his explanations on who he believes wrote each source, and even who was the most likely redactor that combined the four sources into a single compilation. In some cases he even names names, although I don't want to spoil it for you.

Anyway, he explains in detail why sometimes Moses is the hero and sometimes Aaron is the hero and it really makes a lot of sense.


There are various people who've written about the DH. It's fairly generally accepted now that the OT "history" was written from oral tradition, during the middle of the first millennium BCE, and that it was put together by priests.

Here's some further info: In his Prolegomena to the History of Israel, Wellhausen refers to the hypothesis suggested by Leopold George, Wilhelm Vatke, and Eduard Reuss who he calls “disciples of Martin Leberecht de Wette (1780-1849), the epoch-making pioneer of historical criticism in this field.”

Here's another easy read on the subject: Dr Jason Long, Biblical Nonsense.

Regarding Moses,as I said in my earlier post, the clues are there, in Genesis that it was written much later than the events that people believe. I'm not at home, I'll get some sources when I'm back next week.
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Re: Moses

#22  Postby iskander » May 24, 2015 12:39 pm

Spinoza wrote :
From what has been said, it is thus clearer than the sun at noonday that the Pentateuch was not written by Moses, but by someone who lived long after Moses... What is such a proceeding if it is not denying Scripture, and inventing another Bible out of our own heads?
...it follows that the belief that Moses was the author of the Pentateuch is ungrounded and even irrational.


Contemporary , educated, Jewish believers still detest him as much as their ancestors did. They say of Spinoza that he is this : Baruch Spinoza was a true heretic. He was a terrible source of pain and destruction to the Jewish people.

Tractatus-Theologico-Politicus
Chapter VIII.: Of the Authorship of the Pentateuch and the Other Historical Books of the Old Testament.
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Re: Moses

#23  Postby aban57 » May 24, 2015 3:42 pm

Looks like we've found our Jayjay for this post...
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Re: Moses

#24  Postby smudge » May 24, 2015 4:43 pm

NamelessFaceless wrote:
I don't think you can infer he broke the tablets out of clumsiness. The Bible says "his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hand." (Exodus 32:19).


Followed by the slaughter of 3,000....Perhaps he'd not fully understood the "shalt not kill' bit.
I wonder if Moses was at all anxious when climbing up the mountain the second time to explain to God that he'd trashed the tablets in a temper tantrum? 'Look what they made me do, God; they made me break the tablets.....'
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Re: Moses

#25  Postby Alan B » May 24, 2015 5:33 pm

Agrippina wrote:Regarding Moses,as I said in my earlier post, the clues are there, in Genesis that it was written much later than the events that people believe.

And that is the problem with Biblical literalists; they are just unable to grasp the 'time' concept of maybe hundreds of years between the 'camp fire' stories and 'pen to paper' - notwithstanding any political influence on the story-line between times.
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Re: Moses

#26  Postby Agrippina » May 24, 2015 7:34 pm

Indeed. :thumbup:
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Re: Moses

#27  Postby aban57 » May 24, 2015 7:42 pm

There's another interesting point here. The OT (I don't know for the NT) doesn't mention itself as an entity, unlike Quran. Which shows that the Quran has been written maybe as a whole, or intended to be such, unlike the Bible hasn't. It's one more proof that it's just a collection of stories.
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Re: Moses

#28  Postby proudfootz » May 25, 2015 3:26 pm

As far as 'Moses was only a puppet' it seems that is exactly what biblical heroes are supposed to be: willing to surrender their own ego to do as the voices in their heads direct them to do.
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Re: Moses

#29  Postby Agrippina » May 25, 2015 3:54 pm

aban57 wrote:There's another interesting point here. The OT (I don't know for the NT) doesn't mention itself as an entity, unlike Quran. Which shows that the Quran has been written maybe as a whole, or intended to be such, unlike the Bible hasn't. It's one more proof that it's just a collection of stories.


Indeed.
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Re: Moses

#30  Postby proudfootz » May 25, 2015 4:20 pm

Alan B wrote:
Agrippina wrote:Regarding Moses,as I said in my earlier post, the clues are there, in Genesis that it was written much later than the events that people believe.

And that is the problem with Biblical literalists; they are just unable to grasp the 'time' concept of maybe hundreds of years between the 'camp fire' stories and 'pen to paper' - notwithstanding any political influence on the story-line between times.


Let alone the dubious nature of such fireside tales in the first place.

Maybe this is what happened...

The people of the Jews being leprous and scabby, and subject to certain other kinds of distempers, in the days of Bocchoris, king of Egypt, they fled to the temples, and got their food there by begging: and as the numbers were very great that were fallen under these diseases, there arose a scarcity in Egypt.

Hereupon Bocchoris, the king of Egypt, sent some to consult the oracle of [Jupiter] Hammon about his scarcity. The god’s answer was this, that he must purge his temples of impure and impious men, by expelling them out of those temples into desert places; but as to the scabby and leprous people, he must drown them, and purge his temples, the sun having an indignation at these men being suffered to live; and by this means the land will bring forth its fruits.

Upon Bocchoris‘s having received these oracles, he called for their priests, and the attendants upon their altars, and ordered them to make a collection of the impure people, and to deliver them to the soldiers, to carry them away into the desert; but to take the leprous people, and wrap them in sheets of lead, and let them down into the sea. Hereupon the scabby and leprous people were drowned, and the rest were gotten together, and sent into desert places, in order to be exposed to destruction...

<full article on Greek version of Exodus at link below>

http://vridar.org/2015/05/25/moses-and- ... ysimachus/


ETA: link.
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Re: Moses

#31  Postby The_Metatron » May 25, 2015 5:05 pm

So, it seems that the tablets that the chosen people fucking lost were photocopies? Not even original manuscripts?

By the way, I was always astonished at the fucking density of those chosen people. How many times did their JHWH bail their dumb asses out of certain death, for them to later turn around and start fucking off again? I think JHWH chose poorly.
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Re: Moses

#32  Postby laklak » May 25, 2015 5:18 pm

And never mind wandering about in a desert for 40 fucking years. FFS you could walk across the thing in a couple of weeks.
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Re: Moses

#33  Postby Agrippina » May 25, 2015 8:02 pm

Moses was too ashamed of them to take them through the cities so he schlepped them through the desert and they walked in circles because they got lost.
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Re: Moses

#34  Postby aban57 » May 25, 2015 9:14 pm

While God fed them (literally)with food from his mouth. Imagine living on puke for 40 years...
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Re: Moses

#35  Postby Agrippina » May 26, 2015 6:14 am

aban57 wrote:While God fed them (literally)with food from his mouth. Imagine living on puke for 40 years...

He did send them quail when they complained. Imagine - he magicked more than a million quail into the desert where they quietly waited to be slaughtered and eaten without leaving a single trace of the various events behind for archaeologists to dig up the bones.
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Re: Moses

#36  Postby Alan B » May 26, 2015 8:13 am

Details, details. :snooty:
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Re: Moses

#37  Postby Oldskeptic » May 26, 2015 11:04 pm

Agrippina wrote:
aban57 wrote:While God fed them (literally)with food from his mouth. Imagine living on puke for 40 years...

He did send them quail when they complained. Imagine - he magicked more than a million quail into the desert where they quietly waited to be slaughtered and eaten without leaving a single trace of the various events behind for archaeologists to dig up the bones.


You're reading it wrong Aggie, they didn't eat quail. They ate quail shit.

Exodus 16:

13 That evening quail came and covered the camp, and in the morning there was a layer of dew around the camp.

14 When the dew was gone, thin flakes like frost on the ground appeared on the desert floor.

15 When the Israelites saw it, they said to each other, “What is it?” For they did not know what it was. Moses said to them, “It is the bread the Lord has given you to eat.
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Re: Moses

#38  Postby proudfootz » May 26, 2015 11:17 pm

Image
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Re: Moses

#39  Postby Agrippina » May 27, 2015 7:05 am

Oldskeptic wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
aban57 wrote:While God fed them (literally)with food from his mouth. Imagine living on puke for 40 years...

He did send them quail when they complained. Imagine - he magicked more than a million quail into the desert where they quietly waited to be slaughtered and eaten without leaving a single trace of the various events behind for archaeologists to dig up the bones.


You're reading it wrong Aggie, they didn't eat quail. They ate quail shit.

Exodus 16:

13 That evening quail came and covered the camp, and in the morning there was a layer of dew around the camp.

14 When the dew was gone, thin flakes like frost on the ground appeared on the desert floor.

15 When the Israelites saw it, they said to each other, “What is it?” For they did not know what it was. Moses said to them, “It is the bread the Lord has given you to eat.


LOL. I'll come back on this when I'm working on Exodus. Right now I'm picking Genesis apart, verse by verse. :roll:
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Re: Moses

#40  Postby Oldskeptic » May 27, 2015 8:50 am

Agrippina wrote:
Oldskeptic wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
aban57 wrote:While God fed them (literally)with food from his mouth. Imagine living on puke for 40 years...

He did send them quail when they complained. Imagine - he magicked more than a million quail into the desert where they quietly waited to be slaughtered and eaten without leaving a single trace of the various events behind for archaeologists to dig up the bones.


You're reading it wrong Aggie, they didn't eat quail. They ate quail shit.

Exodus 16:

13 That evening quail came and covered the camp, and in the morning there was a layer of dew around the camp.

14 When the dew was gone, thin flakes like frost on the ground appeared on the desert floor.

15 When the Israelites saw it, they said to each other, “What is it?” For they did not know what it was. Moses said to them, “It is the bread the Lord has given you to eat.


LOL. I'll come back on this when I'm working on Exodus. Right now I'm picking Genesis apart, verse by verse. :roll:


Yeah, well I hope you don't miss the part where Adam talks about his parents.
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