Orthodox Christianity

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Orthodox Christianity

#1  Postby Nidji » Apr 19, 2016 1:18 am

Hey Guys,

New to the forum but have been following for ages.

Just wanted to know if any you guys have any thoughts on Orthodox Christianity in terms of if its the "original" church but the origins of Christianity are very dubious if not just simply fabricated what makes it any different to any other form of Christianity?

Thanks heaps all!
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Re: Orthodox Christianity

#2  Postby RealityRules » Apr 19, 2016 2:47 am

Nidji wrote:Hey Guys,

New to the forum but have been following for ages.

Just wanted to know if any you guys have any thoughts on Orthodox Christianity in terms of if 'its the "original" church', but the origins of Christianity are very dubious if not just simply fabricated what makes it any different to any other form of Christianity?

Thanks heaps all!

By 'Orthodox Christianity', do you mean eastern Christianity?

It certainly seems Christianity was more developed in what is now Turkey - in Asia (Minor) (in the east), Anatolia (Galatia, Cappadocia centrally), and 'Bithynia et Pontus', etc., (in the north).

  • Many of the early (ante-Nicene) Church Fathers were in these regions
  • The Council of Nicea in 325ce - the 1st Ecumenical Council - was in the north
  • The first major christian center was Byzantium/Constantinople (see below)
  • all the Ecumenical Councils were in this region
References to Rome in early-Christianity may have been reference to the empire, rather than being references to Rome the city.

When the western Roman empire was crumbling in the mid-late 3rd century, the capital of the empire was moved to Nicomedia, before being moved to Byzantium wich was renamed Nova Roma (New Rome), and then Nova Roma Constantinopolis ie. Constantinople.
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Re: Orthodox Christianity

#3  Postby NineBerry » Apr 19, 2016 10:17 am

When Western Christianity evolved from Eastern Christianity, then why is there still Eastern Christianity?

:mrgreen:
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Re: Orthodox Christianity

#4  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 19, 2016 10:26 am

NineBerry wrote:When Western Christianity evolved from Eastern Christianity, then why is there still Eastern Christianity?

:mrgreen:


Like all things within the xtian church they had a schism.
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Re: Orthodox Christianity

#5  Postby John Platko » Apr 19, 2016 1:19 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
NineBerry wrote:When Western Christianity evolved from Eastern Christianity, then why is there still Eastern Christianity?

:mrgreen:


Like all things within the xtian church they had a schism.


Yes but some of us didn't hold a grudge and we came together at the Union of Brest.
I like to imagine ...
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Re: Orthodox Christianity

#6  Postby The Serpent » May 10, 2016 4:40 am

Nidji wrote:Hey Guys,

New to the forum but have been following for ages.

Just wanted to know if any you guys have any thoughts on Orthodox Christianity in terms of if its the "original" church but the origins of Christianity are very dubious if not just simply fabricated what makes it any different to any other form of Christianity?

Thanks heaps all!


There are two brands of Orthodox xtian -- Eastern Orthodox (Russian/Greek/Romanian/Serbian etc) and Oriental Orthodox (Malankara/Coptic/Armenian Apostolic/Malankara etc). The difference between them has largely to do with the number of ecumenical councils they recognise and questions of Christology (the nature of Christ). The Orientals recognise the first three ecumenical councils whilst the Eastern Orthodox recognise 7, I think.

There are also liturgical differences. Eastern Orthodox are Byzantines whilst Oriental Orthodox have a variety of liturgical forms.

There's another mob called the Assyrian Church of the East who separated before the Orientals and recognise only 1 ecumenical council. Again, I think.

I understand that John Platko is a Byzantine Catholic so he will correct me if I'm wrong.

Along with the Catholics, all these Churches consider themselves to be the original true church and that the others split away from them.

Not entirely related but the Catholic church is in fact a communion of some two dozen or so sui juris ("self governing") churches who all recognise the supremacy of the Pope. The biggest is the Western (or Latin Patriarchal Church) with which most people are familiar. But there are about 30 million or so Eastern catholics who largely mirror the various Orthodox churches. Again I would defer to John Platko's undoubtedly superior knowledge in this and I apologise in advance for any errors I may have made.
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Re: Orthodox Christianity

#7  Postby Scot Dutchy » May 10, 2016 11:11 am

Here is a nice list of all xtian flavours:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
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Re: Orthodox Christianity

#8  Postby ScholasticSpastic » May 10, 2016 12:23 pm

I just thought, "I'm Orthodox" was another way to say "I'm an asshole."
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Re: Orthodox Christianity

#9  Postby Sendraks » May 10, 2016 12:30 pm

Are you a regular asshole or an orthodox asshole?
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Re: Orthodox Christianity

#10  Postby Scot Dutchy » May 10, 2016 12:47 pm

Sendraks wrote:Are you a regular asshole or an orthodox asshole?


Where does a catholic arsehole fit in?
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Re: Orthodox Christianity

#11  Postby Sendraks » May 10, 2016 12:55 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sendraks wrote:Are you a regular asshole or an orthodox asshole?


Where does a catholic arsehole fit in?


You'd have to ask the priests about that.
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Re: Orthodox Christianity

#12  Postby Scot Dutchy » May 10, 2016 12:57 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sendraks wrote:Are you a regular asshole or an orthodox asshole?


Where does a catholic arsehole fit in?


You'd have to ask the priests about that.


That could be painful. :shock:
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Re: Orthodox Christianity

#13  Postby Sendraks » May 10, 2016 12:59 pm

I'm reliably informed from the testimonies of many aggrieved victims that is very much the case.
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Re: Orthodox Christianity

#14  Postby Scot Dutchy » May 10, 2016 1:01 pm

Sendraks wrote:I'm reliably informed from the testimonies of many aggrieved victims that is very much the case.


I dont think I will bother finding out thank you. Might be safer in the orthodox church. Which flavour to choose?
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Re: Orthodox Christianity

#15  Postby ScholasticSpastic » May 10, 2016 2:18 pm

Sendraks wrote:Are you a regular asshole or an orthodox asshole?

Saying orthodox asshole is the same as saying chai tea.
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Re: Orthodox Christianity

#16  Postby crank » May 10, 2016 8:34 pm

I was thinking 'orthodox' as in Bart Ehrman's 'proto-orthodox', the particular variety of early christianity that won out and got to decide what was 'orthodox'. If that's what the OP was referring to, then a great source is Ehrman's The Lost Christianities.
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Re: Orthodox Christianity

#17  Postby Leucius Charinus » May 11, 2016 12:02 am

crank wrote:I was thinking 'orthodox' as in Bart Ehrman's 'proto-orthodox', the particular variety of early christianity that won out and got to decide what was 'orthodox'. If that's what the OP was referring to, then a great source is Ehrman's The Lost Christianities.



Underneath the orthodoxy or otherwise of all Christian sects lies the Nicene Church organisation established as a political entity only during the rule of Constantine and only after he had become the supreme military ruler of the entire Roman empire. Every single Christian cult has emerged from the nexus of the Nicene Christian church. That is when the shit hit the fan.
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Orthodox Christianity

#18  Postby crank » May 11, 2016 7:10 am

Leucius Charinus wrote:
crank wrote:I was thinking 'orthodox' as in Bart Ehrman's 'proto-orthodox', the particular variety of early christianity that won out and got to decide what was 'orthodox'. If that's what the OP was referring to, then a great source is Ehrman's The Lost Christianities.



Underneath the orthodoxy or otherwise of all Christian sects lies the Nicene Church organisation established as a political entity only during the rule of Constantine and only after he had become the supreme military ruler of the entire Roman empire. Every single Christian cult has emerged from the nexus of the Nicene Christian church. That is when the shit hit the fan.

That's basically when the proto-orthodox became orthodox. For over 2 centuries, the various sects clashed, with charges of heresy flying back and forth as each tried to establish their fantasy as the only true fantasy. Then they all had to make nicene. An interesting side note is how Constantine was greatly influenced by his mother, a devoted, but very credulous, relic hunter.
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Re: Orthodox Christianity

#19  Postby Leucius Charinus » May 11, 2016 8:43 am

crank wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
crank wrote:I was thinking 'orthodox' as in Bart Ehrman's 'proto-orthodox', the particular variety of early christianity that won out and got to decide what was 'orthodox'. If that's what the OP was referring to, then a great source is Ehrman's The Lost Christianities.



Underneath the orthodoxy or otherwise of all Christian sects lies the Nicene Church organisation established as a political entity only during the rule of Constantine and only after he had become the supreme military ruler of the entire Roman empire. Every single Christian cult has emerged from the nexus of the Nicene Christian church. That is when the shit hit the fan.


That's basically when the proto-orthodox became orthodox. For over 2 centuries, the various sects clashed, with charges of heresy flying back and forth as each tried to establish their fantasy as the only true fantasy.


That is the history we have been lead to believe but I think that history (of 2 centuries or more) has been fabricated by the victors. Ehrman in the book you have cited above has this to say ....

    "The victors in the struggles
    to establish Christian Orthodoxy
    not only won their theological battles,
    they also rewrote the history of the conflict"


    "later readers then naturally assumed
    that the victorious views had been embraced
    by the vast majority of Christians
    from the very beginning ...

    "The practice of Christian forgery
    has a long and distinguished history ...
    the debate lasted three hundred years."

This is what mainstream believes happened, using Ehrman.

I do not subscribe to this.

What I think happened is as follows:

    The false history rewritten by the victors declared the debate lasted "three hundred years",
    but despite the fact that we'd like to believe them, and assume they told the truth, they lied.
    Authorship of the "Gnostic Gospels" commenced c.324 CE in reaction to the Constantine Bible.
    Constantinian damnatio memoriae, exile, and other forceful measures destroyed the books,
    the name and the political memory of the Post-Nicaean gnostic author(s), with the result that
    the "Greek debate" was "fascistly outlawed" inside "three hundred days", then imperially
    suppressed and destroyed within "three hundred weeks".

    Pachomian renegades reopened the "book debate" in Coptic. Others reopened it in Syriac.
    But these, in turn, were "fascistly outlawed" inside "three hundred months".

    The practice of Christian forgery certainly has a long and distinguished history,
    but the evidence of the practice of Christian forgery appears with the 4th century.
    The debate submerged for "three hundred leap years" while civilisation recovered.
    The debate has been renewed with the recent discovery of ancient manuscript evidence.

So much for the books of the heretics - the non canonical books.
And that is just my opinion.

But as far as the "One True Story" contained in the canonical books ...

With our Lord and Saviour Bilbo Jesus Baggins, yes there was some outrageous archaeology ...

Then they all had to make nicene. An interesting side note is how Constantine was greatly influenced by his mother, a devoted, but very credulous, relic hunter.


The One True Cross and the Very Nails. Yes. It's bullshit.

Legend. Fabrication. Nevertheless a lucrative business.

But to your OP Orthodoxy was funnelled through the Nicene Council like a nexus. What actually happened there is anyone's guess. The history of this event and the massive so-called "Arian controversy" which followed was written in the 5th century. One hundred years after the Nicene Council [which I think was a War Council that the supreme military commander held in order to lay down the new operation of the Eastern Roman Empire.]

Orthodox Christianity of all forms was implemented on the wings of a civil war, by the incoming warlord at the zenith of his military power.

Why is orthodox Christianity characterised by an exclusive male-dominated clergy?

I think the reason is that Constantine appointed many Bishops out of the top rungs of his army. The war had been won. The rewards of power and control and gold were now to be gained by the victors.
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Orthodox Christianity

#20  Postby crank » May 11, 2016 10:06 am

What little of that I can comprehend I think I agree with. I've thought, based on Ehrmin and others writings, that the orthodox histories tried to paint a picture where they were the only christians around except for a few upstart heretics, The truth was the opposite, there were numerous, widely divergent sects, none really dominated for a long time. And this is what one would expect of a group born of a fantasy and developing in many, small and far distant pockets. Even in Paul's time, this was true, that's what a lof of his biblical writings were after all, descriptions of his attempts to keep the pockets in line with his version of the faith and keep the early arrivers at meetings from being pigs.

Eusebius with his 10 volume history I think was in large part devoted to creating this story. I went to 8 years of catholic school, we were definitely taught a history of an homogenous early christianity, I guess our young, impressionable ears couldn't be exposed to how chaotic the church was early on. Most christians are never taught any of that, it's far too human for a divine creation, must not plant any seeds of doubt lest any adherents get the dangerous idea of thinking about it.
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