Pedophilia and the Church

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Re: Pedophilia and the Church

#21  Postby Mick » Jun 22, 2013 2:38 pm

Doubtdispelled wrote:
Mick wrote:It is also worthwhile to note that I am not defending the Catholic spiritual leaders who actually did sexually abuse children. That, I think, is beyond reproach and tenability; and it is also, I think, a truism. Nevertheless, I wanted to make my intentions clear, lest I be perceived as an apologist for sexual abusers or negligent Church officials.

Uh, I think you might need to consider re-wording this sentence, Mick. I'm really hoping you didn't mean to say that the abuse of children by Catholic priests is above criticism? Or that defending them is? It really isn't very clear what you do mean.

Also, if what you meant to say was that either is reproachable, then it's to be hoped that the qualifying phrase 'I think', which can indicate a measure of doubt, wouldn't be necessary.

Edit: Mick's sentence really is so garbled that I see I didn't even criticise it properly. What I should have said was 'Or that not defending them is (beyond reproach)'.

:ask:


I suppose I could have worded it better. It was 2am when I wrote it.
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Re: Pedophilia and the Church

#22  Postby Mick » Jun 22, 2013 2:41 pm

A slight detour : what the heck is this bending spoon business about?
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Re: Pedophilia and the Church

#23  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jun 22, 2013 2:41 pm

Mick wrote:
Thommo wrote:Plausible hypothesis, but (like its converse) according to your links there are just opinions, rather than evidence:-

Since other organizations dealing with children have not undertaken such comprehensive studies, we have no idea whether the Catholic figure is better or worse than the rate for schoolteachers, residential home counselors, social workers or scout masters.


Yet experts say there's simply no data to support the claim at all. No formal comparative study has ever broken down child sexual abuse by denomination, and only the Catholic Church has released detailed data about its own. But based on the surveys and studies conducted by different denominations over the past 30 years, experts who study child abuse say they see little reason to conclude that sexual abuse is mostly a Catholic issue.


Which means that the conclusion "we have seen that this idea that the RCC is more given to sexual abuse than laymen or other religious institutions is a falsehood." is incorrect. We have seen that it's not supported, not that it is false.



Well, I think the case is stronger than that. My sources, at least some of them, have cited studies which conclude there to be no such higher incidence. And my sources, at least some of them, are 'in-the-know' about these sorta things. One would think that if the rates were higher, we would know about it. But we dont; and the evidence we do have suggests the contrary.


WTF 'in-the-know'. You mean they are employed by the rcc to tell lies?

Dont you think the rates were acceptable then?

How about the Magdelene Launderies? No answer on that one yet.
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Re: Pedophilia and the Church

#24  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jun 22, 2013 2:42 pm

Mick wrote:A slight detour : what the heck is this bending spoon business about?


Think FFS. You tripe is as bad as the tripe about bending spoons. Get it got it FUCKING good.
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Re: Pedophilia and the Church

#25  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jun 22, 2013 2:43 pm

The roman catholic church is an arsescrape above islam.
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Re: Pedophilia and the Church

#26  Postby Mick » Jun 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mick wrote:
Thommo wrote:Plausible hypothesis, but (like its converse) according to your links there are just opinions, rather than evidence:-

Since other organizations dealing with children have not undertaken such comprehensive studies, we have no idea whether the Catholic figure is better or worse than the rate for schoolteachers, residential home counselors, social workers or scout masters.


Yet experts say there's simply no data to support the claim at all. No formal comparative study has ever broken down child sexual abuse by denomination, and only the Catholic Church has released detailed data about its own. But based on the surveys and studies conducted by different denominations over the past 30 years, experts who study child abuse say they see little reason to conclude that sexual abuse is mostly a Catholic issue.


Which means that the conclusion "we have seen that this idea that the RCC is more given to sexual abuse than laymen or other religious institutions is a falsehood." is incorrect. We have seen that it's not supported, not that it is false.


My sources are not employed by the RCC.


Well, I think the case is stronger than that. My sources, at least some of them, have cited studies which conclude there to be no such higher incidence. And my sources, at least some of them, are 'in-the-know' about these sorta things. One would think that if the rates were higher, we would know about it. But we dont; and the evidence we do have suggests the contrary.


WTF 'in-the-know'. You mean they are employed by the rcc to tell lies?

Dont you think the rates were acceptable then?

How about the Magdelene Launderies? No answer on that one yet.



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Re: Pedophilia and the Church

#27  Postby Mick » Jun 22, 2013 3:00 pm

What does the asylum and such have to do with my point? It is a simple red herring.
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Re: Pedophilia and the Church

#28  Postby Onyx8 » Jun 22, 2013 3:03 pm

So at best, according to your sources, the RCC is neither better nor worse than any other group. So what's with all the 'spiritual leadership' stuff then? Isn't being close to God supposed to have some effect?
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Re: Pedophilia and the Church

#29  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jun 22, 2013 3:04 pm

Mick wrote:What does the asylum and such have to do with my point? It is a simple red herring.


What asylum? Do you know what the Magdalene Launderies are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_asylum

Magdalene asylums were slave labor laundries from the 18th to the late-20th centuries ostensibly to house "fallen women", a term used to imply female sexual promiscuity. Asylums for such girls and women and others considered to be of poor moral character, such as prostitutes, operated throughout Europe and North America for much of the nineteenth and well into the twentieth century. London's Magdalen Asylum was active from 1758 to 1966.[1] The first such asylum in Ireland opened on Leeson Street in Dublin in 1765, founded by Lady Arabella Denny.

Initially the mission of the asylums was to rehabilitate women back into society, but by the early twentieth century the homes had become increasingly punitive and prison-like. In most asylums, the inmates were required to undertake hard physical labour, including laundry and needle work. They endured a daily regimen that included long periods of prayer and enforced silence.[2]

In Ireland, such asylums were known as Magdalene laundries where it is estimated that, since their inception, up to 30,000 women had been incarcerated.[3][4] The last such institution in Ireland closed in 1996.[4][5][6]


More abuse that is why.
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Re: Pedophilia and the Church

#30  Postby Shrunk » Jun 22, 2013 3:21 pm

Mick wrote:Well, I think the case is stronger than that. My sources, at least some of them, have cited studies which conclude there to be no such higher incidence. And my sources, at least some of them, are 'in-the-know' about these sorta things. One would think that if the rates were higher, we would know about it. But we dont; and the evidence we do have suggests the contrary.


"My sources." Are these confidential sources, like mafia informants or something, and you can't reveal their identity? Or is there some other reason you can't simply provide the statistics to support your claim?

Thommo, you'll recall, has cited figures that suggest a correlation, albeit only indirectly.
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Re: Pedophilia and the Church

#31  Postby Mick » Jun 22, 2013 3:25 pm

Shrunk wrote:
Mick wrote:Well, I think the case is stronger than that. My sources, at least some of them, have cited studies which conclude there to be no such higher incidence. And my sources, at least some of them, are 'in-the-know' about these sorta things. One would think that if the rates were higher, we would know about it. But we dont; and the evidence we do have suggests the contrary.


"My sources." Are these confidential sources, like mafia informants or something, and you can't reveal their identity? Or is there some other reason you can't simply provide the statistics to support your claim?

Thommo, you'll recall, has cited figures that suggest a correlation, albeit only indirectly.



Um, in my OP, I cited my sources. They're under the heading 'links and resources'
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Re: Pedophilia and the Church

#32  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jun 22, 2013 3:29 pm

There are more catholic priests in the world besides American ones.
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Re: Pedophilia and the Church

#33  Postby Shrunk » Jun 22, 2013 3:33 pm

Mick wrote:Um, in my OP, I cited my sources. They're under the heading 'links and resources'


Sorry, my bad.

From the source you particularly recommended:

According to the best available data (which is pretty good mostly coming from a comprehensive report by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in 2004 as well as several other studies), 4% of Catholic priests in the USA sexually victimized minors during the past half century. No evidence has been published at this time that states that this number is higher than clergy from other religious traditions. The 4% figure appears lower than school teachers during the same time frame and certainly less than offenders in the general population of men.


How is it known that this does not simply reflect that the Church made greater and more effective efforts to cover up abuse than schools did?
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Re: Pedophilia and the Church

#34  Postby redwhine » Jun 22, 2013 4:01 pm

Mick wrote:What does the asylum and such have to do with my point? It is a simple red herring.

I agree entirely; your point is a simple red herring!
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Re: Pedophilia and the Church

#35  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jun 22, 2013 4:51 pm

Shrunk wrote:
Mick wrote:Um, in my OP, I cited my sources. They're under the heading 'links and resources'


Sorry, my bad.

From the source you particularly recommended:

According to the best available data (which is pretty good mostly coming from a comprehensive report by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in 2004 as well as several other studies), 4% of Catholic priests in the USA sexually victimized minors during the past half century. No evidence has been published at this time that states that this number is higher than clergy from other religious traditions. The 4% figure appears lower than school teachers during the same time frame and certainly less than offenders in the general population of men.


How is it known that this does not simply reflect that the Church made greater and more effective efforts to cover up abuse than schools did?


The schools never did a cover up where as the church was doing it from day 1.
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Re: Pedophilia and the Church

#36  Postby james1v » Jun 22, 2013 7:24 pm

A very informative documentary on the BBC about this subject, it shows how high up and how broadly the church was responsible for the crimes of its employees.

Link...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... ima_Culpa/



Watch it Mick. I dont think there's ever been an organisation that went to such extremes to cover their tracks, not just since the fifties, since the fourth century! Well worth watching, for everyone. Its a shame it wasn't shown on BBC1 or 2 prime time. It wasn't, it was shown late at night on one of the other, less watched BBC channels. :think:
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Re: Pedophilia and the Church

#37  Postby epepke » Jun 22, 2013 8:05 pm

OK, this is annoying and stupid. Look, Mick. We don't care. That's not the concern.

The concern is this. The Catholic Church has engaged in a massive coverup, using huge amounts of Church funds to do it, which they got by pretending to be so moral that they had the right to decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

That's it.

Now, I know that you are incapable of understanding this. I know that you imagine that the poor, pitiful Catholics are being singled out for no reason whatsoever, and you think that you can fix that by counteracting some "myth." I know that you do not care about that issue, that you do not mind that ordinary Catholics spend money to front for child buggery, and nor are you willing to try. Nor can you understand that these desperate acts of bullshitting just make you seem less human. But those are the facts.
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Re: Pedophilia and the Church

#38  Postby Mick » Jun 22, 2013 8:31 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mick wrote:What does the asylum and such have to do with my point? It is a simple red herring.


What asylum? Do you know what the Magdalene Launderies are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_asylum

Magdalene asylums were slave labor laundries from the 18th to the late-20th centuries ostensibly to house "fallen women", a term used to imply female sexual promiscuity. Asylums for such girls and women and others considered to be of poor moral character, such as prostitutes, operated throughout Europe and North America for much of the nineteenth and well into the twentieth century. London's Magdalen Asylum was active from 1758 to 1966.[1] The first such asylum in Ireland opened on Leeson Street in Dublin in 1765, founded by Lady Arabella Denny.

Initially the mission of the asylums was to rehabilitate women back into society, but by the early twentieth century the homes had become increasingly punitive and prison-like. In most asylums, the inmates were required to undertake hard physical labour, including laundry and needle work. They endured a daily regimen that included long periods of prayer and enforced silence.[2]

In Ireland, such asylums were known as Magdalene laundries where it is estimated that, since their inception, up to 30,000 women had been incarcerated.[3][4] The last such institution in Ireland closed in 1996.[4][5][6]


More abuse that is why.



But I'm not addressing abuse in general.
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Re: Pedophilia and the Church

#39  Postby virphen » Jun 22, 2013 8:35 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
The schools never did a cover up where as the church was doing it from day 1.


That isn't true, unfortunately.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poly_Prep_ ... use_claims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_State ... se_scandal
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Re: Pedophilia and the Church

#40  Postby Mick » Jun 22, 2013 8:37 pm

Shrunk wrote:
Mick wrote:Um, in my OP, I cited my sources. They're under the heading 'links and resources'


Sorry, my bad.

From the source you particularly recommended:

According to the best available data (which is pretty good mostly coming from a comprehensive report by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in 2004 as well as several other studies), 4% of Catholic priests in the USA sexually victimized minors during the past half century. No evidence has been published at this time that states that this number is higher than clergy from other religious traditions. The 4% figure appears lower than school teachers during the same time frame and certainly less than offenders in the general population of men.


How is it known that this does not simply reflect that the Church made greater and more effective efforts to cover up abuse than schools did?



Yeah, that could be an obstacle. We work with the evidence we have, I suppose. It is pretty clear to me that given what we know, the Church is of no more risk than any one else; or, if I can please Thommo, we have no good basis to think the contrary.

Anyhow: I think I raised some good links for our consumption. Next I will try deal with Catholicism and the charge of homophobia.
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