Pope Francis tells atheists to abide by their own conscience

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Re: Pope Francis tells atheists to abide by their own conscience

#21  Postby BlackBart » Sep 12, 2013 2:33 pm

Yeah, thanks for the handy tip, Frankie. :roll:
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Re: Pope Francis tells atheists to abide by their own conscience

#22  Postby Ian Tattum » Sep 12, 2013 3:26 pm

zulumoose wrote:I think "question" should be more like "key"

Perhaps what he is really trying to say is that he thinks even atheists were created with gods morality inbuilt, and if they are true to their nature, then they will not stray too far from their intended path.

I.E. if you are an atheist but do not rebel against your God-given nature, salvation is within reach.

I guess it is as far as he is allowed to go towards admitting that following scripture and the institution of the church is not the only path to morality.

At least he is trying?

That is about right I think! He is simply re-iterating the dominant theological view as put forward In Vatican 2 and by many C20th theologians.
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Re: Pope Francis tells atheists to abide by their own conscience

#23  Postby trubble76 » Sep 12, 2013 3:47 pm

Ian Tattum wrote:
zulumoose wrote:I think "question" should be more like "key"

Perhaps what he is really trying to say is that he thinks even atheists were created with gods morality inbuilt, and if they are true to their nature, then they will not stray too far from their intended path.

I.E. if you are an atheist but do not rebel against your God-given nature, salvation is within reach.

I guess it is as far as he is allowed to go towards admitting that following scripture and the institution of the church is not the only path to morality.

At least he is trying?

That is about right I think! He is simply re-iterating the dominant theological view as put forward In Vatican 2 and by many C20th theologians.


Does that mean the carpenter chappy was wrong when he said something about him being the only way to god? Atheists can get there without a zombie carpenter? Whats the need of the RCC then?
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Re: Pope Francis tells atheists to abide by their own conscience

#24  Postby Animavore » Sep 12, 2013 3:51 pm

I think I'm going to stop talking to Telegraph readers now Image
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Re: Pope Francis tells atheists to abide by their own conscience

#25  Postby HomerJay » Sep 12, 2013 4:00 pm

So what happens to the Last rites?

Penance
Unction
Viaticum

All now superfluous as we just await God's judgement or do these have a beneficial affect on the Good Lord?
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Re: Pope Francis tells atheists to abide by their own conscience

#26  Postby Ian Tattum » Sep 12, 2013 5:05 pm

trubble76 wrote:
Ian Tattum wrote:
zulumoose wrote:I think "question" should be more like "key"

Perhaps what he is really trying to say is that he thinks even atheists were created with gods morality inbuilt, and if they are true to their nature, then they will not stray too far from their intended path.

I.E. if you are an atheist but do not rebel against your God-given nature, salvation is within reach.

I guess it is as far as he is allowed to go towards admitting that following scripture and the institution of the church is not the only path to morality.

At least he is trying?

That is about right I think! He is simply re-iterating the dominant theological view as put forward In Vatican 2 and by many C20th theologians.


Does that mean the carpenter chappy was wrong when he said something about him being the only way to god? Atheists can get there without a zombie carpenter? Whats the need of the RCC then?

Your first question lacks precision, the second seems to confuse popular culture with christian beliefs, and your third, which seems to be the most serious one would , by a catholic possibly be answered, using conventional terminology, that it has more of the truth than anyone else- 'Vanguard of the people' was a rather unfortunate phrase popular at one stage. The RCC is more right than anyone else, but everyone else is not totally misguided. :)
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Re: Pope Francis tells atheists to abide by their own conscience

#27  Postby I'm With Stupid » Sep 12, 2013 6:01 pm

natselrox wrote:This one seems like the "PR guy" for the vile institution. Huge improvement over the past ones though...

Gotta say, he's very good at his job. The number of positive headlines he's creating is exceptional.
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Re: Pope Francis tells atheists to abide by their own conscience

#28  Postby Aern Rakesh » Sep 12, 2013 6:04 pm

DougC wrote:From my understanding of the bible, and the other works of woo. The Athiests are as near as dammit to the chosen people. We are the ones who actualy live decent lives and try not to harm others.


:scratch: Are you really saying that atheists are the only people who live decent lives and try not to harm others?
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Re: Pope Francis tells atheists to abide by their own conscience

#29  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Sep 12, 2013 6:05 pm

Ian Tattum wrote:
trubble76 wrote:
Ian Tattum wrote:
zulumoose wrote:I think "question" should be more like "key"

Perhaps what he is really trying to say is that he thinks even atheists were created with gods morality inbuilt, and if they are true to their nature, then they will not stray too far from their intended path.

I.E. if you are an atheist but do not rebel against your God-given nature, salvation is within reach.

I guess it is as far as he is allowed to go towards admitting that following scripture and the institution of the church is not the only path to morality.

At least he is trying?

That is about right I think! He is simply re-iterating the dominant theological view as put forward In Vatican 2 and by many C20th theologians.


Does that mean the carpenter chappy was wrong when he said something about him being the only way to god? Atheists can get there without a zombie carpenter? Whats the need of the RCC then?

Your first question lacks precision,

Not really.
Jesus said one could only get to heaven through faith in him.

Ian Tattum wrote:the second seems to confuse popular culture with christian beliefs,

No it's a comedic metaphor about Jesus coming back from the death.

Ian Tattum wrote: and your third, which seems to be the most serious one would ,by a catholic possibly be answered, using conventional terminology, that it has more of the truth than anyone else-

What's the use if you can get into heaven without them?

Ian Tattum wrote: 'Vanguard of the people' was a rather unfortunate phrase popular at one stage. The RCC is more right than anyone else, but everyone else is not totally misguided. :)

Yes, the RCC is so more right that it:
Made treaties with Nazi Germany,
Supported slavery,
Covered up and continues to cover up sexual abuse. :yuk:
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Re: Pope Francis tells atheists to abide by their own conscience

#30  Postby DougC » Sep 13, 2013 12:46 am

Nora_Leonard wrote:
DougC wrote:From my understanding of the bible, and the other works of woo. The Athiests are as near as dammit to the chosen people. We are the ones who actualy live decent lives and try not to harm others.


:scratch: Are you really saying that atheists are the only people who live decent lives and try not to harm others?


Many theists live good lives up to the point that the real world bumps into there beliefs.
"If I prey hard enough, then there is no reason to vaxinate my child."
"Personly I have nothing against them, But my god (more likely the local chief woo-master) commands me to kill them."
"No, the world must be 5000 years old (or flat, or on the back of a billy goat) because this bronze age text roughly indicates it.
Its all fine untill the world comes crashing in.
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Re: Pope Francis tells atheists to abide by their own conscience

#31  Postby Aern Rakesh » Sep 13, 2013 6:52 am

DougC wrote:
Nora_Leonard wrote:
DougC wrote:From my understanding of the bible, and the other works of woo. The Athiests are as near as dammit to the chosen people. We are the ones who actualy live decent lives and try not to harm others.


:scratch: Are you really saying that atheists are the only people who live decent lives and try not to harm others?


Many theists live good lives up to the point that the real world bumps into there beliefs.
"If I prey hard enough, then there is no reason to vaxinate my child."
"Personly I have nothing against them, But my god (more likely the local chief woo-master) commands me to kill them."
"No, the world must be 5000 years old (or flat, or on the back of a billy goat) because this bronze age text roughly indicates it.
Its all fine untill the world comes crashing in.


I should imagine that there are millions of religious people who:
1) Vaccinate their children and trust in modern medicine
2) Would have just as much difficulty with killing someone as the next person, religious or otherwise
3) Don't for a second believe that the world is only 5000 years old.

No, you're going to have to produce some actual hard evidence that atheists are more likely to be good, decent people than religious people.
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Re: Pope Francis tells atheists to abide by their own conscience

#32  Postby trubble76 » Sep 13, 2013 8:52 am

Ian Tattum wrote:
trubble76 wrote:
Ian Tattum wrote:
zulumoose wrote:I think "question" should be more like "key"

Perhaps what he is really trying to say is that he thinks even atheists were created with gods morality inbuilt, and if they are true to their nature, then they will not stray too far from their intended path.

I.E. if you are an atheist but do not rebel against your God-given nature, salvation is within reach.

I guess it is as far as he is allowed to go towards admitting that following scripture and the institution of the church is not the only path to morality.

At least he is trying?

That is about right I think! He is simply re-iterating the dominant theological view as put forward In Vatican 2 and by many C20th theologians.


Does that mean the carpenter chappy was wrong when he said something about him being the only way to god? Atheists can get there without a zombie carpenter? Whats the need of the RCC then?

Your first question lacks precision, the second seems to confuse popular culture with christian beliefs, and your third, which seems to be the most serious one would , by a catholic possibly be answered, using conventional terminology, that it has more of the truth than anyone else- 'Vanguard of the people' was a rather unfortunate phrase popular at one stage. The RCC is more right than anyone else, but everyone else is not totally misguided. :)


I shall try to improve the precision of my question for you then. The carpenter chappy is Jesus. Apparently christians believe their god was a carpenter and also a member of the undead. Apparently he claimed that believers could only win the afterlife jackpot through him. Apparently the king of the believers, AKA the Pope is contradicting the carpenter's claim. It raises the question of why do we need christianity if the requirement to believe in any of it is no longer there.
I hope that is clearer for you.
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Re: Pope Francis tells atheists to abide by their own conscience

#33  Postby Sovereign » Sep 13, 2013 2:22 pm

I'm With Stupid wrote:
natselrox wrote:This one seems like the "PR guy" for the vile institution. Huge improvement over the past ones though...

Gotta say, he's very good at his job. The number of positive headlines he's creating is exceptional.


Ya but he's causing quite a stir within his own ranks though. I wonder how the Catholic church will handle this. By the pope saying this, he's giving non-religious Catholics, who were afraid in the back of their head that they might be wrong about going atheist, a way out that make them feel at ease. I don't think the pope has realized what he's done.
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Re: Pope Francis tells atheists to abide by their own conscience

#34  Postby JVRaines » Sep 14, 2013 1:18 am

The Church still believes that the only way to heaven is to join the Church and follow its rules. All Bergoglio is saying, essentially, is 1) God is mysterious and merciful and he can do anything he wants and 2) It's best to follow your conscience. Yawn.
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Re: Pope Francis tells atheists to abide by their own conscience

#35  Postby Onyx8 » Sep 14, 2013 1:21 am

It's that second one that's causing all the fuss. You actually aren't supposed to follow your conscience you are supposed to ask 'those who know' what you should do to get into Heaven.
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
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Re: Pope Francis tells atheists to abide by their own conscience

#36  Postby Darwinsbulldog » Sep 14, 2013 1:48 am

Nora_Leonard wrote:
DougC wrote:
Nora_Leonard wrote:
DougC wrote:From my understanding of the bible, and the other works of woo. The Athiests are as near as dammit to the chosen people. We are the ones who actualy live decent lives and try not to harm others.


:scratch: Are you really saying that atheists are the only people who live decent lives and try not to harm others?


Many theists live good lives up to the point that the real world bumps into there beliefs.
"If I prey hard enough, then there is no reason to vaxinate my child."
"Personly I have nothing against them, But my god (more likely the local chief woo-master) commands me to kill them."
"No, the world must be 5000 years old (or flat, or on the back of a billy goat) because this bronze age text roughly indicates it.
Its all fine untill the world comes crashing in.


I should imagine that there are millions of religious people who:
1) Vaccinate their children and trust in modern medicine
2) Would have just as much difficulty with killing someone as the next person, religious or otherwise
3) Don't for a second believe that the world is only 5000 years old.

No, you're going to have to produce some actual hard evidence that atheists are more likely to be good, decent people than religious people.


All true Nora. :thumbup:

However faith-based thinking can dull moral appeciation and the acceptance of natural phenomenon as having natural causation. This includes faith in ideologies as well as religious faith.
Faith sets up a bias towards moral principles that are 'canned" rather than the result using our sense of good and testing that sense with reason and evidence.Likewise, religions tend to set up worldviews that put the social realities before physical realities, in other words a bias towards magical thinking and away from reasoning and evidence as arbiters of "reality".
Rational atheism and science thus share some common ground in their approaches to social and physical reality. This DOES NOT make the theist incapable of reason, but it does make it more difficult.
Thus the theist will often have blind spots in moral or natural philosophy as a direct consequence of what they believe. The atheist, who lacks belief, also lacks that "handicap".
Methodological naturalism is a good example of this, because 'defacto" when doing science, one practices non-belief in anything. The sole professional concern is to make descriptive and predictive models of natural phenomena and subject them to severe test.
In faith-based systems, most "severe tests" of those beliefs are missing. Models of gods, as well as being "facts not in evidence" are self-inconsistent. [Like all magical thinking].
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Re: Pope Francis tells atheists to abide by their own conscience

#37  Postby DougC » Sep 14, 2013 1:54 am

Em, er, yea. Just what I was going to say. :shifty:
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Re: Pope Francis tells atheists to abide by their own conscience

#38  Postby Aern Rakesh » Sep 14, 2013 6:51 am

Darwinsbulldog wrote:
Nora_Leonard wrote:
I should imagine that there are millions of religious people who:
1) Vaccinate their children and trust in modern medicine
2) Would have just as much difficulty with killing someone as the next person, religious or otherwise
3) Don't for a second believe that the world is only 5000 years old.

No, you're going to have to produce some actual hard evidence that atheists are more likely to be good, decent people than religious people.


All true Nora. :thumbup:

However faith-based thinking can dull moral appeciation and the acceptance of natural phenomenon as having natural causation. This includes faith in ideologies as well as religious faith.
Faith sets up a bias towards moral principles that are 'canned" rather than the result using our sense of good and testing that sense with reason and evidence.Likewise, religions tend to set up worldviews that put the social realities before physical realities, in other words a bias towards magical thinking and away from reasoning and evidence as arbiters of "reality".
Rational atheism and science thus share some common ground in their approaches to social and physical reality. This DOES NOT make the theist incapable of reason, but it does make it more difficult.
Thus the theist will often have blind spots in moral or natural philosophy as a direct consequence of what they believe. The atheist, who lacks belief, also lacks that "handicap".
Methodological naturalism is a good example of this, because 'defacto" when doing science, one practices non-belief in anything. The sole professional concern is to make descriptive and predictive models of natural phenomena and subject them to severe test.
In faith-based systems, most "severe tests" of those beliefs are missing. Models of gods, as well as being "facts not in evidence" are self-inconsistent. [Like all magical thinking].


DB that is not evidence that atheists are more likely to be good, decent people than religious people, that is you theorising why that should be the case.

Where is the evidence? Where are the statistics...and perhaps more to the point, what are the measures? How do you measure what makes a person a good, decent person?
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Re: Pope Francis tells atheists to abide by their own conscience

#39  Postby Fallible » Sep 14, 2013 7:17 am

By asking whether they condone genocide or not according to who perpetrates it?
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: Pope Francis tells atheists to abide by their own conscience

#40  Postby Aern Rakesh » Sep 14, 2013 7:34 am

Fallible wrote:By asking whether they condone genocide or not according to who perpetrates it?


I don't really understand. Are you saying that this would be a good question? And would you expect there to be a difference between how a religious person might answer as compared to an atheist? :scratch: (I can't really believe that...so I'm left puzzled.)
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