paarsurrey wrote:Jesus promised to show sign of Jonah;

Where does it say that?

John

More fairy stories.

z8000783 wrote:

paarsurrey wrote:Jesus promised to show sign of Jonah;

Where does it say that?

John

[4] A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign: and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. And he left them, and went away. [Matthew 16:4]

Weaver wrote:Where do you find "Jesus in India" in the Bible?

Or Google, for that matter?

There are many websites that mention of Jesus in India, I give some here:


http://www.harisingh.com/news2C1a.htm

http://other9.tripod.com/scr/kashmir.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_years_of_Jesus

http://www.sol.com.au/kor/7_01.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DXCZFRsyl8 a BBC documentary.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentar … view.shtml

http://www.alislam.org/library/jesusinkashmir.html

paarsurrey wrote:

z8000783 wrote:

paarsurrey wrote:Jesus promised to show sign of Jonah;

Where does it say that?

John

[4] A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign: and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. And he left them, and went away. [Matthew 16:4]

The Bible is corrupted and written by men, where does it say that in the Quran?

John

paarsurrey wrote:

Sovereign wrote:

paarsurrey wrote:Prophecies Jesus fulfilled

Jesus promised to show sign of Jonah; as Jonah escaped death so did Jesus; he did not die on the Cross and was saved against all odds. Later he migrated to India.

Do you just make stuff up as you post? I think this isn't the first time you've postulated that. Is that in the Q'uran?

Quran and Hadith hint at it; and history expalins it in full.

Did you read Jesus in India or google for Jesus in India?

I also read about Jesus marrying Mary Magdalene and him surviving the crucifixion. I wouldn't believe everything you read.

paarsurrey wrote:

Weaver wrote:Where do you find "Jesus in India" in the Bible?

Or Google, for that matter?

There are many websites that mention of Jesus in India, I give some here:


http://www.harisingh.com/news2C1a.htm

http://other9.tripod.com/scr/kashmir.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_years_of_Jesus

http://www.sol.com.au/kor/7_01.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DXCZFRsyl8 a BBC documentary.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentar … view.shtml

http://www.alislam.org/library/jesusinkashmir.html

How many of them point to sources before the 19th century?

spin wrote:

paarsurrey wrote:

Sovereign wrote:

Do you just make stuff up as you post? I think this isn't the first time you've postulated that. Is that in the Q'uran?

Quran and Hadith hint at it; and history expalins it in full.

Did you read Jesus in India or google for Jesus in India?

I also read about Jesus marrying Mary Magdalene and him surviving the crucifixion. I wouldn't believe everything you read.

I don't think Dan Brown counts as a biblical scholar.

John

z8000783 wrote:

spin wrote:

paarsurrey wrote:

Quran and Hadith hint at it; and history expalins it in full.

Did you read Jesus in India or google for Jesus in India?

I also read about Jesus marrying Mary Magdalene and him surviving the crucifixion. I wouldn't believe everything you read.

I don't think Dan Brown counts as a biblical scholar.

Perhaps then you may understand my comment.

spin wrote:

paarsurrey wrote:

Weaver wrote:Where do you find "Jesus in India" in the Bible?

Or Google, for that matter?

There are many websites that mention of Jesus in India, I give some here:


http://www.harisingh.com/news2C1a.htm

http://other9.tripod.com/scr/kashmir.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_years_of_Jesus

http://www.sol.com.au/kor/7_01.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DXCZFRsyl8 a BBC documentary.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentar … view.shtml

http://www.alislam.org/library/jesusinkashmir.html

How many of them point to sources before the 19th century?

Why do you insist to that?

paarsurrey wrote:

spin wrote:

paarsurrey wrote:

There are many websites that mention of Jesus in India, I give some here:


http://www.harisingh.com/news2C1a.htm

http://other9.tripod.com/scr/kashmir.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_years_of_Jesus

http://www.sol.com.au/kor/7_01.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DXCZFRsyl8 a BBC documentary.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentar … view.shtml

http://www.alislam.org/library/jesusinkashmir.html

How many of them point to sources before the 19th century?

Why do you insist to that?

"[I]nsist"? I merely point out that the links provided give no historical evidence to the claim whatsoever. One doesn't take material from the 19th c. as evidence for anything but the 19th century.

spin wrote:

paarsurrey wrote:

spin wrote:
How many of them point to sources before the 19th century?

Why do you insist to that?

"[I]nsist"? I merely point out that the links provided give no historical evidence to the claim whatsoever. One doesn't take material from the 19th c. as evidence for anything but the 19th century.

If we get some historical records in 19th century pertaining to something relating to past; we should not discard it.

paarsurrey wrote:

spin wrote:

paarsurrey wrote:

Why do you insist to that?

"[I]nsist"? I merely point out that the links provided give no historical evidence to the claim whatsoever. One doesn't take material from the 19th c. as evidence for anything but the 19th century.

If we get some historical records in 19th century pertaining to something relating to past; we should not discard it.

This is not a response to what you were ostensibly trying to respond to. I discarded nothing. 19th c. materials are evidence for the 19th c. If you want to say more, you need to argue the case based on further relevant evidence that shows that the material relates to an earlier reality. Then of course, you won't need the 19th c. materials at all.

spin wrote:This is not a response to what you were ostensibly trying to respond to. I discarded nothing. 19th c. materials are evidence for the 19th c. If you want to say more, you need to argue the case based on further relevant evidence that shows that the material relates to an earlier reality. Then of course, you won't need the 19th c. materials at all.

You would that should be so fucking obvious you shouldn't have to explain it, wouldn't you?

Shrunk wrote:

spin wrote:This is not a response to what you were ostensibly trying to respond to. I discarded nothing. 19th c. materials are evidence for the 19th c. If you want to say more, you need to argue the case based on further relevant evidence that shows that the material relates to an earlier reality. Then of course, you won't need the 19th c. materials at all.

You would that should be so fucking obvious you shouldn't have to explain it, wouldn't you?

Some people's noses have been so bent out of shape they can't see straight.... Well, more than some.

Ok, time to get on with this: there's still about 300 to work my way through, so...

here's the next bunch to get through. In a way, I started getting bored while writing this: some of them are so convoluted or weird that ... there's seriously no way of even answering them coherently. They're so far off that it should be obvious they are nothing like prophecies fulfilled by anyone. If those things can be used to support the claim that Jesus is messiah, I can find at least a 100 fulfillments I personally have done by accident. And so can you. And so can every actual claimant. Some of them probably even get up to the several-hundreds - in the case of Shabbetai Zvi and Menachem Mendel Schneerson, if we accept post-biblical literature as well, books that predate their birth by centuries have predicted a lot of their achievements as well. But only if we accept this kind of weird, contextless and incoherent manner of reading.

This time, I haven't checked much of the Hebrew, because it generally is superfluous if the prophecy doesn't even exist in the translation.

36. Numbers 9:12...Not a bone of Him broken...John 19:31-36

As usual, let's start with the context:
The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, [and] eat it with unleavened bread and bitter [herbs].
They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.

I have never seen anyone take the eucharist with bitter herbs, and I think the unleavened thing is even considered optional in many churches these days - at least I've seen baptists have leavened communion. Even then, extending the "prophecy" (which it isn't) to include the eucharist is all too kind even then. What it says is to eat the passover sacrifice with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. Was Jesus corpse eaten with unleavened bread and bitter herbs, none left to the morning? Sure, you can get the bitter herbs into it if you really want by referring to the wrapping in linen cloth and herbs - but who would swallow the claim that they also ate his body?

Anyway, this text basically restates the rule given in exodus 12:46, where Moses tells the Israelites to celebrate Pesach and redo the things they did in Exodus, in a ritual fashion. A group of men ask Moses - the narrative apparently takes place just before the first Pesach after Exodus would occur - whether they can observe Pesach even in a state of ritual uncleanliness (brought on by having handled a corpse, I guess they had to bury someone). Moses tells them to observe the Pesach rituals during the *next* month - when they presumably have had time to ritually purify themselves, and observe the same strictures regarding it. He also says people who are travelling can observe it during the next month. And this time, that's where he mentions the unbroken bones - that this restriction is in place even at this alternate Pesach celebration. No Christians will claim Jesus was killed during Iyar 14th, so how this commandment not to break any bones of the (alternate pesach) lamb offering in Iyar can apply to him is also kind of mysterious.
Unless, like LionIRC, you think the Bible is a jumble of sentences that don't line up to form narratives. If the OT can be read like he wants us to think, it basically also means he's abandoned the idea there's a coherent train of thought anywhere in the Bible - why think the garden of Eden story is supposed to be a story, why not just assume it's details of the Messiah's life and mission told out of order? All of the Bible, including verses like
"Then were the men exceedingly afraid, and said unto him, Why hast thou done this? For the men knew that he fled from the presence of the LORD, because he had told them."
refer to Jesus?

37. Numbers 21:9...The serpent on a pole-Christ lifted up...John 3:14-18

Funny that! Jesus is now a serpent. This one is so ... contrived that i pretty much can't do anything but mock it. Sorry about that.

38. Numbers 24:8… Flight to Egypt…Matthew 2:14

The nouns here clearly are collective; translating these by "him" is misleading.
But let's have a look at the KJV rendition:

He hath said, which heard the words of God, which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling [into a trance], but having his eyes open:
How goodly are thy tents, O Jacob, [and] thy tabernacles, O Israel!
As the valleys are they spread forth, as gardens by the river's side, as the trees of lign aloes which the LORD hath planted, [and] as cedar trees beside the waters.
He shall pour the water out of his buckets, and his seed [shall be] in many waters, and his king shall be higher than Agag, and his kingdom shall be exalted.
God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce [them] through with his arrows.
...
And Balak's anger was kindled against Balaam, and he smote his hands together: and Balak said unto Balaam, I called thee to curse mine enemies, and, behold, thou hast altogether blessed [them] these three times.

Jesus hasn't eaten up the nations his enemies, nor has he pierced them through with his arrows. It's clear this text speaks about the Hebrew nation collectively, and of course this isn't a prophecy that has been remarkably well fulfilled either by Jesus or by the Hebrew nation. But the Hebrews not having fulfilled it doesn't make the score for fulfilling it default to Jesus.

 

39. Numbers 24:17...Time: "I shall see him, but not now."...Galatians 4:4

How this even points to Jesus is quite unclear; I mean, I don't see my brother right now, but I do see him on occasion. I guess he's the messiah. Every messianic candidate ever can be claimed to have fulfilled this. We don't see Shabbetai Zvi, we don't see Jacob Frank, ... and neither of them were visible at the time Numbers was written.

40. Numbers 24:17-19…A star out of Jacob…Matthew 2:2, Luke 1:33,78, Revelation 22:16

Again, iff he is the Messiah he fulfills this - not vice versa or as the Christians would have it, ~because (they say) he is the messiah, he fulfills it, and therefore he is the messiah ; we can't use it to prove that he is the messiah. That would be circular.

41. Deuteronomy 18:15..."This is of a truth that prophet."...John 6:14

Again, circular. The text in Deuteronomy doesn't say that the prophet will do a miracle of that nature; furthermore, in a similar chapter, the Torah states that a prophet that cancels any rule in the Torah is a false prophet regardless of miracles, and that such a prophet must be killed.

42. Deuteronomy 18:15-16..."Had ye believed Moses, ye would believe me."...John 5:45-47

The New Testament doesn't even present this as a fulfillment - it's just a thing Jesus says in opposition to the farisees/sadducees/whoever, and he does not present it as a fulfillment. No reference is made to the Deuteronomy verses referred to in the list, and there's no reason to interpret anything in the NT as a fulfillment thereof (except if we first interpret the verse in a certain manner, AND then assume circular fulfillments are fulfillments, e.g. Jesus is the messiah because Jesus is the messiah)

At this point, I'd hope LionIRC shows me that he understands why circular arguments don't help. There being a prediction of a Messiah doesn't make a person claiming to be the fulfillment of that prediction a proof that he is so. We can only count non-circular fulfillments, so only those which do not assume the conclusion can be used as indications as to someone being the messiah. If we're only left with circular arguments, the case is about as solid as foam.

43. Deuteronomy 18:18...Sent by the Father to speak His word...John 8:28, 29

Could also just as well be fulfilled by every OT prophet, and in context, it seems more to be the institution of prophets in general that is spoken of. The wording might imply something like 'one very special prophet', but in that case, due to my previously voiced objection, it's not Jesus.

44. Deuteronomy 18:19...Whoever will not hear must bear his sin...John 12:15

It's fascinating how many fulfillments they count out of a single non-fulfillment.

45. Deuteronomy 21:13-23…As a prophet…John 6:14; 7:40, Acts 3:22,23

The Deuteronomy verses refer to laws regarding a captive woman, laws regarding inheritance if you've got children by two wives, and finally the rule regarding stoning unruly children. The compiler of this list simply got a wrong verse listed here, but ...

The NT verses help figure out what it's referring to, but that's an attempt to count an already listed (and debunked) thing yet another time. This attempt to inflate the number of fulfillments by counting them as many should really stop; as punishment, I'll claim -10 fulfillments for now.

46. Deuteronomy 21:23...Cursed is he that hangs on a tree...Galatians 3:10-13

And being cursed is generally not a good thing. The galatians verses referred to read about as weird as the Shabbetian notion that the Messiah will purify and bless the world through sin. It's such a weird abuse of the OT text that it's difficult to keep track of how many turns it's been twisted around.

47. Ruth 4:4-9...Christ, our kinsman, has redeemed us...Ephesians 1:3-7

Again, not phrased as a prophecy, and such a redemption is kind of circular - if he's the messiah, he has redeemed us, but if he isn't, he hasn't, and so on. The verse in context doesn't even talk of redeeming people, it talks of a plot of land. A plot of land that was to be redeemed due to

48. 1 Samuel 2:10...Shall be an anointed King to the Lord...Matthew 28:18; John 12:15

How do we objectively know someone is an anointed King to the Lord? I haven't seen any proof that that is what he is, and assuming he is it, so we can count this as a fulfillment is circular.
Surprisingly enough, this is a criticism that will keep recurring throughout my treatment of this, and by now, I think I should just put a label at every single instance of circular logic.

49. 2 Samuel 7:12...David's Seed...Matthew 1:1

Lots of people that are David's seed have claimed they're the Messiah. OTOH, lots of them haven't been the Messiah. If the rest of the actual central messianic prophecies were fulfilled, then this would be fulfilled - but this isn't so much a requirement the Messiah is supposed to fulfill, as a promise.

50. 2 Samuel 7:14a...The Son of God... Luke 1:32

I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men.

I guess Jesus did commit iniquity! More seriously, the prophet Nathan promises David that his house shall rule Israel forever, but that they'll be held accountable. Jesus never held the throne of David.

51. 2 Samuel 7:16...David's house established forever...Luke 3:31; Rev. 22:16

Yes, and Jesus fulfills this how, and how do we know he fulfills it?

52. 2 Samuel 23:2-4…would be the “Rock”…1 Corinthians 10:4

[circular], also, Peter is the rock.
Also also, the verse in Samuel does not say anything like "The messiah will be the Rock", it says
The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men [must be] just, ruling in the fear of God.

This is phrased in a typical Hebrew poetical manner, and says that God said [x 2], he that rules over men has to be fair and god-fearing. Nothing else.

53. 2 Samuel 23:2-4…would be as the “light of the morning”…Revelation 22:16
Now is he? [circular]
No, seriously, in what way can we observe - even in the narratives - Jesus having fulfilled this? it sounds very symbolic, and the thing with symbolism is, it can be adapted to mean nearly anything in this context. Shabbatai Zvi can just as much be the light of the morning. As can Menachem Mendel Schneerson or Bar Kochba.

54. 2 Kings 2:11...The bodily ascension to heaven illustrated...Luke 24:51

Elijah ascends to heaven, and this ascenscion is somehow a prophecy of Jesus ascending to heaven? No. Sure, if any of them had occurred, it'd be impressive stuff, but there's no wording in the original text that indicates it'll be a Thing the messiah will do.

55. 1 Chronicles 17:11...David's Seed...Matthew 1:1; 9:27

He fulfills a requirement, but there were lots of people of David's seed (provided David really existed, which is another question altogether)

56. 1 Chronicles 17:12, 13a...To reign on David's throne forever...Luke 1:32, 33

Jesus currently does not reign on David's throne in any visible manner, and we can therefore not count him as having fulfilled it in any verified sense whatsoever.

57. 1 Chronicles 17:13a..."I will be His Father, He...my Son."...Hebrews 1:5

[circular]

58. Job 19:23-27...The Resurrection predicted...John 5:24-29

The resurrection of the people has not yet occurred, and hence can't be considered a fulfillment.

This will open up a chapter of clearly poetic texts, many of which are even less easy to understand than the ones I've gone through this far.

59. Psalms 2:1-3...The enmity of kings foreordained...Acts 4:25-28

But not all Kings have been his enemies. In fact, quite a few have been staunch allies.

60. Psalms 2:2...To own the title, Anointed (Christ)...Acts 2:36

That's not what the verse says - the verse says rulers of the world take a stand against the God's anointed (which, if we compare the content of the Psalm and the narrative of David's life, seems to indicate it's about David's life). The compiler of this list tries making it circular. And looking at the verse itself, we can see that both Bar Kochba and Shabbetai Zvi fulfilled this - Bar Kochba by getting an entire empire to go to war against him, and Shabbetai Zvi being forced to convert to Islam by the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire. The Roman emperor probably never even heard of Jesus, by contrast, until generations down the line. Christian tradition also has three kings not taking a stand against him, but bending their knees to him in fulfillment of some other verse - why didn't the three kings take a stand against him and try killing him while he was but an infant?

By now, there's something like -20 out of 365. Quite a successful attempt at being a Messiah.

I am fleshing out a response to LionIRC as well, will post it within a week or so.