Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

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Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#41  Postby dejuror » Jan 02, 2012 4:16 am

paarsurrey wrote:Jesus mentioned no mystery; he was a straightforward Jew who followed Moses. it is Paul who invented the Christianity with evil designs; as reality did not support his theology so he had to base it on mysteries which he himself could not understand to explain.


There is ZERO evidence that Paul invented Christianity.

Actually, it is the REVERSE. The written evidence is that Paul ATTEMPTED to destroy the Christian Faith. See Galatians 1.
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Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#42  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 02, 2012 2:08 pm

dejuror wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:Jesus mentioned no mystery; he was a straightforward Jew who followed Moses. it is Paul who invented the Christianity with evil designs; as reality did not support his theology so he had to base it on mysteries which he himself could not understand to explain.


There is ZERO evidence that Paul invented Christianity.

Actually, it is the REVERSE. The written evidence is that Paul ATTEMPTED to destroy the Christian Faith. See Galatians 1.


Well written???? The whole of the bibble is fairy stories. Paul had to be holy so the big u-turn but anyway it is just a story.
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Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#43  Postby paarsurrey » Jan 10, 2012 9:30 pm

dejuror wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:Jesus mentioned no mystery; he was a straightforward Jew who followed Moses. it is Paul who invented the Christianity with evil designs; as reality did not support his theology so he had to base it on mysteries which he himself could not understand to explain.


The written evidence is that Paul ATTEMPTED to destroy the Christian Faith. See Galatians 1.


Paul and his associates invented creeds never believed by Jesus; this was his attempt to destroy truthful teachings of Jesus.
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Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#44  Postby RealityRules » Jan 10, 2012 10:14 pm

paarsurrey wrote: Paul and his associates invented creeds never believed by Jesus; this was his attempt to destroy truthful teachings of Jesus.

If Paul & Jesus were real persons with histories as documented, Jesus would not have had any opportunity to see or hear creeds invented by Paul and his associates; he would have been dead.
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Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#45  Postby paarsurrey » Jan 10, 2012 10:40 pm

RealityRules wrote:
paarsurrey wrote: Paul and his associates invented creeds never believed by Jesus; this was his attempt to destroy truthful teachings of Jesus.

If Paul & Jesus were real persons with histories as documented, Jesus would not have had any opportunity to see or hear creeds invented by Paul and his associates; he would have been dead.


I don't get you clearly; please elaborate.
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Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#46  Postby RealityRules » Jan 11, 2012 1:25 am

paarsurrey wrote:
RealityRules wrote:If Paul & Jesus were real persons with histories as documented, Jesus would not have had any opportunity to see or hear creeds invented by Paul and his associates; he would have been dead.

I don't get you clearly; please elaborate.

I was meaning that Paul's creeds and preaching were developed after Jesus died, so Jesus could not have known them.

add: just realised you may mean the creeds Paul developed were different to what Jesus believed.

I think that it is questionable whether Paul or Jesus or both were a real person, or a mythical character.
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Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#47  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 11, 2012 12:07 pm

All fiction and lies. Both did mot exist. If you disagree then prove it.
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Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#48  Postby dejuror » Jan 14, 2012 1:30 am

RealityRules wrote:
paarsurrey wrote: Paul and his associates invented creeds never believed by Jesus; this was his attempt to destroy truthful teachings of Jesus.

If Paul & Jesus were real persons with histories as documented, Jesus would not have had any opportunity to see or hear creeds invented by Paul and his associates; he would have been dead.


Actually, if Paul and Jesus were real persons and Paul did see Jesus after he was crucified then Jesus may have been able to hear the teachings of Paul.

Once it is true that Paul and OVER 500 people saw Jesus after he was crucified it would mean Jesus SURVIVED the Crucifixion.

In the "Life of Flavius Josephus" there were THREE persons who were crucified and were taken down by order of Titus the Emperor and ONE of the Crucified SURVIVED.

"Life of Flavius Josephus"
.... I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician's hands, while the third recovered....


In the EARLIEST Jesus story, if the story is true, which is doubtful, Jesus PERHAPS Faked his death or was removed by his friends and placed under the care of a Physician--hence the Empty Tomb.

But, if Jesus survived why did he NOT preach the Gospel all over the ROMAN Empire instead of Paul?
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Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#49  Postby paarsurrey » Jan 14, 2012 1:56 am

dejuror wrote:
RealityRules wrote:
paarsurrey wrote: Paul and his associates invented creeds never believed by Jesus; this was his attempt to destroy truthful teachings of Jesus.

If Paul & Jesus were real persons with histories as documented, Jesus would not have had any opportunity to see or hear creeds invented by Paul and his associates; he would have been dead.


Actually, if Paul and Jesus were real persons and Paul did see Jesus after he was crucified then Jesus may have been able to hear the teachings of Paul.

Once it is true that Paul and OVER 500 people saw Jesus after he was crucified it would mean Jesus SURVIVED the Crucifixion.

In the "Life of Flavius Josephus" there were THREE persons who were crucified and were taken down by order of Titus the Emperor and ONE of the Crucified SURVIVED.

"Life of Flavius Josephus"
.... I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician's hands, while the third recovered....


In the EARLIEST Jesus story, if the story is true, which is doubtful, Jesus PERHAPS Faked his death or was removed by his friends and placed under the care of a Physician--hence the Empty Tomb.

But, if Jesus survived why did he NOT preach the Gospel all over the ROMAN Empire instead of Paul?


Because he left Judea to spread the teachings to the lost ten tribes of Jews to whom he was sent as a messenger prophet of the Creator God like Jonah.
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Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#50  Postby proudfootz » Jan 14, 2012 3:22 am

paarsurrey wrote:
dejuror wrote:
RealityRules wrote:
paarsurrey wrote: Paul and his associates invented creeds never believed by Jesus; this was his attempt to destroy truthful teachings of Jesus.

If Paul & Jesus were real persons with histories as documented, Jesus would not have had any opportunity to see or hear creeds invented by Paul and his associates; he would have been dead.


Actually, if Paul and Jesus were real persons and Paul did see Jesus after he was crucified then Jesus may have been able to hear the teachings of Paul.

Once it is true that Paul and OVER 500 people saw Jesus after he was crucified it would mean Jesus SURVIVED the Crucifixion.

In the "Life of Flavius Josephus" there were THREE persons who were crucified and were taken down by order of Titus the Emperor and ONE of the Crucified SURVIVED.

"Life of Flavius Josephus"
.... I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician's hands, while the third recovered....


In the EARLIEST Jesus story, if the story is true, which is doubtful, Jesus PERHAPS Faked his death or was removed by his friends and placed under the care of a Physician--hence the Empty Tomb.

But, if Jesus survived why did he NOT preach the Gospel all over the ROMAN Empire instead of Paul?


Because he left Judea to spread the teachings to the lost ten tribes of Jews to whom he was sent as a messenger prophet of the Creator God like Jonah.


So Jesus went to America as the Mormons have told us?

Fascinating!
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#51  Postby ElDiablo » Jan 14, 2012 3:45 am

:popcorn:
God is silly putty.
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Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#52  Postby paarsurrey » Jan 14, 2012 12:49 pm

proudfootz wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:
dejuror wrote:
RealityRules wrote:
If Paul & Jesus were real persons with histories as documented, Jesus would not have had any opportunity to see or hear creeds invented by Paul and his associates; he would have been dead.


Actually, if Paul and Jesus were real persons and Paul did see Jesus after he was crucified then Jesus may have been able to hear the teachings of Paul.

Once it is true that Paul and OVER 500 people saw Jesus after he was crucified it would mean Jesus SURVIVED the Crucifixion.

In the "Life of Flavius Josephus" there were THREE persons who were crucified and were taken down by order of Titus the Emperor and ONE of the Crucified SURVIVED.

"Life of Flavius Josephus"
.... I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician's hands, while the third recovered....


In the EARLIEST Jesus story, if the story is true, which is doubtful, Jesus PERHAPS Faked his death or was removed by his friends and placed under the care of a Physician--hence the Empty Tomb.

But, if Jesus survived why did he NOT preach the Gospel all over the ROMAN Empire instead of Paul?


Because he left Judea to spread the teachings to the lost ten tribes of Jews to whom he was sent as a messenger prophet of the Creator God like Jonah.


So Jesus went to America as the Mormons have told us?

Fascinating!


I never said or implied that.
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Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#53  Postby proudfootz » Jan 14, 2012 2:19 pm

paarsurrey wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:
dejuror wrote:

Actually, if Paul and Jesus were real persons and Paul did see Jesus after he was crucified then Jesus may have been able to hear the teachings of Paul.

Once it is true that Paul and OVER 500 people saw Jesus after he was crucified it would mean Jesus SURVIVED the Crucifixion.

In the "Life of Flavius Josephus" there were THREE persons who were crucified and were taken down by order of Titus the Emperor and ONE of the Crucified SURVIVED.

"Life of Flavius Josephus"

In the EARLIEST Jesus story, if the story is true, which is doubtful, Jesus PERHAPS Faked his death or was removed by his friends and placed under the care of a Physician--hence the Empty Tomb.

But, if Jesus survived why did he NOT preach the Gospel all over the ROMAN Empire instead of Paul?


Because he left Judea to spread the teachings to the lost ten tribes of Jews to whom he was sent as a messenger prophet of the Creator God like Jonah.


So Jesus went to America as the Mormons have told us?

Fascinating!


I never said or implied that.
According to an angel sent by God the people we know as Native Americans are actually the 'Lost Tribes' of Israel.

It said so on Golden Plates the angel revealed.

And the Book of Mormon confirms your claim that Jesus ministered to them in America after the resurrection.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#54  Postby paarsurrey » Jan 14, 2012 2:28 pm

proudfootz wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:

Because he left Judea to spread the teachings to the lost ten tribes of Jews to whom he was sent as a messenger prophet of the Creator God like Jonah.


So Jesus went to America as the Mormons have told us?

Fascinating!


I never said or implied that.
According to an angel sent by God the people we know as Native Americans are actually the 'Lost Tribes' of Israel.

It said so on Golden Plates the angel revealed.

And the Book of Mormon confirms your claim that Jesus ministered to them in America after the resurrection.


I did not say that Jesus went to America.
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We believe:
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Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#55  Postby proudfootz » Jan 14, 2012 3:01 pm

paarsurrey wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:
proudfootz wrote:

So Jesus went to America as the Mormons have told us?

Fascinating!


I never said or implied that.
According to an angel sent by God the people we know as Native Americans are actually the 'Lost Tribes' of Israel.

It said so on Golden Plates the angel revealed.

And the Book of Mormon confirms your claim that Jesus ministered to them in America after the resurrection.


I did not say that Jesus went to America.


We know the "lost tribes' were in America and that Jesus ministered to them there.

An angel told us - it's inscribed on Golden Plates.

It must be true.
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Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#56  Postby paarsurrey » Jan 14, 2012 5:23 pm

proudfootz wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:

I never said or implied that.
According to an angel sent by God the people we know as Native Americans are actually the 'Lost Tribes' of Israel.

It said so on Golden Plates the angel revealed.

And the Book of Mormon confirms your claim that Jesus ministered to them in America after the resurrection.


I did not say that Jesus went to America.


We know the "lost tribes' were in America and that Jesus ministered to them there.

An angel told us - it's inscribed on Golden Plates.

It must be true.


I don't mind if you believe that.
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Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#57  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 14, 2012 5:44 pm

It is a true as anything you have been blethering.
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Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#58  Postby Blood » Jan 14, 2012 7:14 pm

proudfootz wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:

I never said or implied that.
According to an angel sent by God the people we know as Native Americans are actually the 'Lost Tribes' of Israel.

It said so on Golden Plates the angel revealed.

And the Book of Mormon confirms your claim that Jesus ministered to them in America after the resurrection.


I did not say that Jesus went to America.


We know the "lost tribes' were in America and that Jesus ministered to them there.

An angel told us - it's inscribed on Golden Plates.

It must be true.



Moreover, Joseph Smith is much better attested to historically than Paul OR Jesus.

So, yeah, it must be true, using the standard methods of the scholarly consensus.
"One absurdity having been granted, the rest follows. Nothing difficult about that."
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Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#59  Postby RealityRules » Jan 14, 2012 10:20 pm

dejuror wrote: ... if "Paul" and "Jesus" were real persons, and "Paul" did see "Jesus" after he was crucified then "Jesus" may have been able to hear the teachings of "Paul".

Once it is true that "Paul" and OVER 500 people saw "Jesus" after he was crucified it would mean "Jesus" survived the Crucifixion [or, the crucifixion story is false].

In the "Life of Flavius Josephus" there were THREE persons who were crucified and taken down by order of Titus the Emperor and ONE of the Crucified SURVIVED.

"Life of Flavius Josephus"
.... I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician's hands, while the third recovered....


In theearliets "Jesus" story, if the story is true, which is doubtful, "Jesus" perhaps Faked his death, or was removed by his friends and placed under the care of a Physician--hence the Empty Tomb.

But, if "Jesus" survived why didn't he preach the Gospel all over the ROMAN Empire instead of Paul?

paarsurrey wrote:Because he left Judea to spread the teachings to the lost ten tribes of Jews to whom he was sent as a messenger prophet of the Creator God like Jonah.

What "Jesus" was or did, or might have done, particularly as a prophet, is pure speculation: none of it is substantiated, especially claims he travelled far and wide.
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Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#60  Postby dejuror » Jan 15, 2012 3:17 am

RealityRules wrote:What "Jesus" was or did, or might have done, particularly as a prophet, is pure speculation: none of it is substantiated, especially claims he travelled far and wide.


It is indeed speculation that the Pauline Jesus did survive the supposed crucifixion after all the Pauline writer claimed he was NOT the apostle of a human being and also did NOT get his gospel from any man. See Galatians 1.

Now, the Pauline writings cannot be corroborated by any non-apologetic sources of antiquity.

Paul, a Hebrew of Hebrews, and a Pharisee claimed his Jesus was the End of Jewish Law, that Circumcision was NOT needed for Salvation, that his Jesus was the Christ and the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus provided UNIVERSAL Salvation.

There is NO opposition to the Pauline writings, No questioning of the Pauline writings, No controversy in any non-apologetic sources yet Paul was supposedly all over the Roman Empire claiming that Jesus, a resurrected Jew, was LORD and that every one on EARTH ,[even the Deified Emperors of Rome], should BOW to the name of Jesus.

According to Josephus, Vespasian was the Prophesied Messiah which is in direct contradiction to the Pauline writings.

Wars of the Jews" 6.5
But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how," about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination.

Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea.


The Paulne writings are NOT authentic--Philo, Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius and Pliny the younger did NOT write about the Pauline Jesus, the Messiah, that abolished Jewish Law.

Even Tacitus and Suetonius claimed it was VESPASIAN that was predicted to be the Messiah, and did NOT mention the Pauline Jesus. See "Life of Vespasian" by Suetonius and "Histories 5 by Tacitus.

And Pliny who lived in Rome did NOT know of the Pauline Jesus and that Christians did worship the Pauline Jesus.

The Pauline writings are historically and chronologically bogus.
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