Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

Moderators: Blip, DarthHelmet86

Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#61  Postby paarsurrey » Jan 15, 2012 1:22 pm

dejuror wrote:
The Pauline writings are historically and chronologically bogus.


I agree with you; Paul was a dubious character.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/
We believe:
• Quran- authored by the Creator God; 100% accurate if correctly interpreted
• Sunnah-always existed with Quran; it derives its accuracy from Quran.
• Hadith- accurate only if it does not differ with Quran.
User avatar
paarsurrey
Banned User
 
Posts: 2594

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#62  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 15, 2012 1:30 pm

At best if Paul did exist he was no better than a snake-oil salesman making a quick buck flogging xtianity.
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.” — Napoleon Bonaparte
User avatar
Scot Dutchy
 
Posts: 43118
Age: 71
Male

Country: Nederland
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#63  Postby z8000783 » Jan 15, 2012 2:03 pm

paarsurrey wrote:
dejuror wrote:
The Pauline writings are historically and chronologically bogus.


I agree with you; Paul was a dubious character.

In what way exactly? Can you be a bit more specific?

John
I don’t simply believe in miracles - I rely on them
z8000783
 
Name: WTF
Posts: 9330
Age: 67
Male

Country: Greece
Greece (gr)
Print view this post

Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#64  Postby paarsurrey » Jan 15, 2012 6:49 pm

z8000783 wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:
dejuror wrote:
The Pauline writings are historically and chronologically bogus.


I agree with you; Paul was a dubious character.

In what way exactly? Can you be a bit more specific?

John


Paul never met Jesus; he leant nothing of Jesus' teachings from him; Paul self appointed himself as Jesus' successor on a fake vision.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/
We believe:
• Quran- authored by the Creator God; 100% accurate if correctly interpreted
• Sunnah-always existed with Quran; it derives its accuracy from Quran.
• Hadith- accurate only if it does not differ with Quran.
User avatar
paarsurrey
Banned User
 
Posts: 2594

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#65  Postby dejuror » Jan 15, 2012 10:44 pm

paarsurrey wrote:
z8000783 wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:
dejuror wrote:
The Pauline writings are historically and chronologically bogus.


I agree with you; Paul was a dubious character.

In what way exactly? Can you be a bit more specific?

John


Paul never met Jesus; he leant nothing of Jesus' teachings from him; Paul self appointed himself as Jesus' successor on a fake vision.


Paul did NOT claim he had a vision of the resurrected Jesus he claimed he was a WITNESS of the resurrected one. Anyone can have visions and dreams but Paul is claiming that Jesus was indeed RAISED from the dead on the THIRD day.

1 Corinthians 15:15 KJV

Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up , if so be that the dead rise not.


The Pauline writer is claiming his Jesus is STILL ALIVE and that he can communicate with him.

But, Paul is a FALSE witness because the DEAD RISE NOT in THREE days.

The Pauline writings and Gospel are a product of a Fictitious event--the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:17 KJV

And if Christ be not raised , your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.


No non-apologetic source accounted for Paul and the resurrected Pauline Jesus--not Philo, Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny the younger.
dejuror
 
Posts: 4716

Print view this post

Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#66  Postby z8000783 » Jan 16, 2012 6:39 am

paarsurrey wrote:
z8000783 wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:
dejuror wrote:
The Pauline writings are historically and chronologically bogus.


I agree with you; Paul was a dubious character.

In what way exactly? Can you be a bit more specific?

John


Paul never met Jesus; he leant nothing of Jesus' teachings from him; Paul self appointed himself as Jesus' successor on a fake vision.

How do you know it was fake?

John
I don’t simply believe in miracles - I rely on them
z8000783
 
Name: WTF
Posts: 9330
Age: 67
Male

Country: Greece
Greece (gr)
Print view this post

Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#67  Postby paarsurrey » Jan 16, 2012 1:22 pm

z8000783 wrote:How do you know it was fake?

John


He mentions it in a very foggy way.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/
We believe:
• Quran- authored by the Creator God; 100% accurate if correctly interpreted
• Sunnah-always existed with Quran; it derives its accuracy from Quran.
• Hadith- accurate only if it does not differ with Quran.
User avatar
paarsurrey
Banned User
 
Posts: 2594

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#68  Postby z8000783 » Jan 16, 2012 1:27 pm

Do you have a citation for that?

John
I don’t simply believe in miracles - I rely on them
z8000783
 
Name: WTF
Posts: 9330
Age: 67
Male

Country: Greece
Greece (gr)
Print view this post

Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#69  Postby dejuror » Jan 16, 2012 3:46 pm

paarsurrey wrote:
z8000783 wrote:How do you know it was fake?

John


He mentions it in a very foggy way.


The claim that Jesus was RAISED from the dead is NOT "foggy" at all in the Pauline writings.

It is the COMPLETE opposite. The Pauline writer was EXTREMELY clear.

The Pauline writer gave a LIST of names and stated that OVER 500 people SAW the resurrected Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15
..For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received , how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried , and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once....... .

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also...................


12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen :

14 And if Christ be not risen , then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up , if so be that the dead rise not.......


The Pauline writer is CLEARLY a Fiction Writer who was familiar with an ALREADY WRITTEN Jesus story.

The Post-resurrection visit of Jesus to the disciples is a FICTION story found in the Gospels and the Pauline writer SIMPLY ADDED or EMBELLISHED the numbers of people from the 11 disciples to OVER 500 persons.
dejuror
 
Posts: 4716

Print view this post

Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#70  Postby paarsurrey » Jan 16, 2012 3:50 pm

z8000783 wrote:Do you have a citation for that?

John


The Acts Of The Apostles :

Chapter 9
[1] And Saul, as yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, [2] And asked of him letters to Damascus, to the synagogues: that if he found any men and women of this way, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. [3] And as he went on his journey, it came to pass that he drew nigh to Damascus; and suddenly a light from heaven shined round about him. [4] And falling on the ground, he heard a voice saying to him: Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [5] Who said: Who art thou, Lord? And he: I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. It is hard for thee to kick against the goad.
[6] And he trembling and astonished, said: Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? [7] And the Lord said to him: Arise, and go into the city, and there it shall be told thee what thou must do. Now the men who went in company with him, stood amazed, hearing indeed a voice, but seeing no man. [8] And Saul arose from the ground; and when his eyes were opened, he saw nothing. But they leading him by the hands, brought him to Damascus. [9] And he was there three days, without sight, and he did neither eat nor drink.

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/51009.htm

Please keep in mind; I don't defend Christianity; I only defend real Jesus- the man and son of man- a human being.
Last edited by paarsurrey on Jan 16, 2012 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/
We believe:
• Quran- authored by the Creator God; 100% accurate if correctly interpreted
• Sunnah-always existed with Quran; it derives its accuracy from Quran.
• Hadith- accurate only if it does not differ with Quran.
User avatar
paarsurrey
Banned User
 
Posts: 2594

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#71  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jan 16, 2012 3:51 pm

Who does not exist. Strange that.
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.” — Napoleon Bonaparte
User avatar
Scot Dutchy
 
Posts: 43118
Age: 71
Male

Country: Nederland
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#72  Postby paarsurrey » Jan 16, 2012 3:56 pm

dejuror wrote:

The Pauline writer is CLEARLY a Fiction Writer who was familiar with an ALREADY WRITTEN Jesus story.

The Post-resurrection visit of Jesus to the disciples is a FICTION story found in the Gospels and the Pauline writer SIMPLY ADDED or EMBELLISHED the numbers of people from the 11 disciples to OVER 500 persons.


I agree with you here.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/
We believe:
• Quran- authored by the Creator God; 100% accurate if correctly interpreted
• Sunnah-always existed with Quran; it derives its accuracy from Quran.
• Hadith- accurate only if it does not differ with Quran.
User avatar
paarsurrey
Banned User
 
Posts: 2594

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#73  Postby dejuror » Jan 16, 2012 4:36 pm

paarsurrey wrote:
dejuror wrote:

The Pauline writer is CLEARLY a Fiction Writer who was familiar with an ALREADY WRITTEN Jesus story.

The Post-resurrection visit of Jesus to the disciples is a FICTION story found in the Gospels and the Pauline writer SIMPLY ADDED or EMBELLISHED the numbers of people from the 11 disciples to OVER 500 persons.


I agree with you here.


I really don't know if you agree with me. I consider the NT Canon as a compilation of Myth Fables about a Myth character called Jesus.

Now, it is quite remarkable to me that the Pauline writer could have made himself an apostle and then have his writings CANONISED if Jesus did actually exist and did have disciples whom he did teach things CONTRARY to Paul.

It is clear to me that the ENTIRE NT is FICTION as soon as the Pauline writer claimed he did NOT get his Gospel from a human being.

1. Paul did NOT get his gospel from the "historical Jesus" but from Myth Jesus.

2. Paul did NOT get his gospel from any human being or the apostles of the supposed Jesus.

3. Paul persecuted the Faith.

It is clear that Paul must have been AWARE of the Gospel if he was a PERSECUTOR.

The Pauline writings are NOT credible and were unknown even up to the mid-century based on the writings of Justin Martyr, Aristides and "Against Celsus" attributed to Origen.
dejuror
 
Posts: 4716

Print view this post

Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#74  Postby paarsurrey » Jan 16, 2012 8:13 pm

dejuror wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:
dejuror wrote:

The Pauline writer is CLEARLY a Fiction Writer who was familiar with an ALREADY WRITTEN Jesus story.

The Post-resurrection visit of Jesus to the disciples is a FICTION story found in the Gospels and the Pauline writer SIMPLY ADDED or EMBELLISHED the numbers of people from the 11 disciples to OVER 500 persons.


I agree with you here.



1. Paul did NOT get his gospel from the "historical Jesus" but from Myth Jesus.

2. Paul did NOT get his gospel from any human being or the apostles of the supposed Jesus.

3. Paul persecuted the Faith.

It is clear that Paul must have been AWARE of the Gospel if he was a PERSECUTOR.

The Pauline writings are NOT credible


I agree to your above expressions.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/
We believe:
• Quran- authored by the Creator God; 100% accurate if correctly interpreted
• Sunnah-always existed with Quran; it derives its accuracy from Quran.
• Hadith- accurate only if it does not differ with Quran.
User avatar
paarsurrey
Banned User
 
Posts: 2594

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#75  Postby dejuror » Jan 17, 2012 7:15 am

paarsurrey wrote:
dejuror wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:
dejuror wrote:

The Pauline writer is CLEARLY a Fiction Writer who was familiar with an ALREADY WRITTEN Jesus story.

The Post-resurrection visit of Jesus to the disciples is a FICTION story found in the Gospels and the Pauline writer SIMPLY ADDED or EMBELLISHED the numbers of people from the 11 disciples to OVER 500 persons.


I agree with you here.



1. Paul did NOT get his gospel from the "historical Jesus" but from Myth Jesus.

2. Paul did NOT get his gospel from any human being or the apostles of the supposed Jesus.

3. Paul persecuted the Faith.

It is clear that Paul must have been AWARE of the Gospel if he was a PERSECUTOR.

The Pauline writings are NOT credible


I agree to your above expressions.


Well, please explain how Paul managed to write BLATANT Fiction about Jesus and then still was able to have his Fiction Fable Canonoized.

The mother of Jesus must have thought Paul was a LIAR if Jesus did actually exist.

Please state why Jesus, if he did live, did NOT tell people that Paul was Lying?

Remember if Jesus was a man then he revealed NOTHING to Paul from heaven and Jesus may have read the Pauline letters and SAW ALL the LIES of Paul.
dejuror
 
Posts: 4716

Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#76  Postby z8000783 » Jan 17, 2012 7:17 am

paarsurrey wrote:
z8000783 wrote:Do you have a citation for that?

John


The Acts Of The Apostles :

Chapter 9
[1] And Saul, as yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, [2] And asked of him letters to Damascus, to the synagogues: that if he found any men and women of this way, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. [3] And as he went on his journey, it came to pass that he drew nigh to Damascus; and suddenly a light from heaven shined round about him. [4] And falling on the ground, he heard a voice saying to him: Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [5] Who said: Who art thou, Lord? And he: I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. It is hard for thee to kick against the goad.
[6] And he trembling and astonished, said: Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? [7] And the Lord said to him: Arise, and go into the city, and there it shall be told thee what thou must do. Now the men who went in company with him, stood amazed, hearing indeed a voice, but seeing no man. [8] And Saul arose from the ground; and when his eyes were opened, he saw nothing. But they leading him by the hands, brought him to Damascus. [9] And he was there three days, without sight, and he did neither eat nor drink.

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/51009.htm

Please keep in mind; I don't defend Christianity; I only defend real Jesus- the man and son of man- a human being.

Thanks for the citation however these are not meant to be Paul's words.

Do you have something else?

John
I don’t simply believe in miracles - I rely on them
z8000783
 
Name: WTF
Posts: 9330
Age: 67
Male

Country: Greece
Greece (gr)
Print view this post

Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#77  Postby paarsurrey » Jan 17, 2012 1:01 pm

z8000783 wrote:
paarsurrey wrote:
z8000783 wrote:Do you have a citation for that?

John


The Acts Of The Apostles :

Chapter 9
[1] And Saul, as yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, [2] And asked of him letters to Damascus, to the synagogues: that if he found any men and women of this way, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. [3] And as he went on his journey, it came to pass that he drew nigh to Damascus; and suddenly a light from heaven shined round about him. [4] And falling on the ground, he heard a voice saying to him: Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [5] Who said: Who art thou, Lord? And he: I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. It is hard for thee to kick against the goad.
[6] And he trembling and astonished, said: Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? [7] And the Lord said to him: Arise, and go into the city, and there it shall be told thee what thou must do. Now the men who went in company with him, stood amazed, hearing indeed a voice, but seeing no man. [8] And Saul arose from the ground; and when his eyes were opened, he saw nothing. But they leading him by the hands, brought him to Damascus. [9] And he was there three days, without sight, and he did neither eat nor drink.

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/51009.htm

Please keep in mind; I don't defend Christianity; I only defend real Jesus- the man and son of man- a human being.

Thanks for the citation however these are not meant to be Paul's words.

Do you have something else?

John


I know; but this is the basis of induction of Paul to "Christianity".
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/
We believe:
• Quran- authored by the Creator God; 100% accurate if correctly interpreted
• Sunnah-always existed with Quran; it derives its accuracy from Quran.
• Hadith- accurate only if it does not differ with Quran.
User avatar
paarsurrey
Banned User
 
Posts: 2594

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#78  Postby z8000783 » Jan 17, 2012 1:04 pm

What about Paul's own description of his conversion?

John
I don’t simply believe in miracles - I rely on them
z8000783
 
Name: WTF
Posts: 9330
Age: 67
Male

Country: Greece
Greece (gr)
Print view this post

Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#79  Postby paarsurrey » Jan 17, 2012 1:11 pm

dejuror wrote:


Well, please explain how Paul managed to write BLATANT Fiction about Jesus and then still was able to have his Fiction Fable Canonoized.


It was canonized much later; by the people who followed his line.

The mother of Jesus must have thought Paul was a LIAR if Jesus did actually exist.


Jesus took Mary along when he went on self-exile from Judea.

Please state why Jesus, if he did live, did NOT tell people that Paul was Lying?


Jesus did not visit Judea again; he was away a thousand kilometers; there were no modern communications.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/
We believe:
• Quran- authored by the Creator God; 100% accurate if correctly interpreted
• Sunnah-always existed with Quran; it derives its accuracy from Quran.
• Hadith- accurate only if it does not differ with Quran.
User avatar
paarsurrey
Banned User
 
Posts: 2594

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Questioning the authenticity of the "Pauline" documents

#80  Postby z8000783 » Jan 17, 2012 1:56 pm

1 Corinthians 15:3–8 wrote:For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Doesn't seem foggy to me.

John
I don’t simply believe in miracles - I rely on them
z8000783
 
Name: WTF
Posts: 9330
Age: 67
Male

Country: Greece
Greece (gr)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Christianity

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest