Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

Moderators: Blip, amok, DarthHelmet86, Matt8819

Re: Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

#161  Postby byofrcs » Apr 15, 2010 3:28 am

Seth wrote:
byofrcs wrote:.....

I said "If the human rights lawyer finds that the court has jurisdiction ".


Human rights lawyers, or any lawyers for that matter, do not make that determination. Only a court of competent jurisdiction can make that determination. A lawyer might CLAIM that the court has jurisdiction, but the very first question any court will have to ask and answer is "does this court have proper jurisdiction." If not, the case is dismissed.


Well yes. OK, I suppose I should have said, "If the human rights lawyer believes that the court has jurisdiction (and the court accepts the case)....etc etc" - I did not expect such a fine dissection of my text. I must admit that at least your replies to threads are unlikely to contain expletives, which is nice.
In America the battle is between common cents distorted by profits and common sense distorted by prophets.
User avatar
byofrcs
RS Donator
 
Name: Lincoln Phipps
Posts: 7903
Age: 50
Male

Country: Tax, sleep, identity ?
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

#162  Postby Seth » Apr 15, 2010 3:31 am

byofrcs wrote:
Seth wrote:
byofrcs wrote:.....

I said "If the human rights lawyer finds that the court has jurisdiction ".


Human rights lawyers, or any lawyers for that matter, do not make that determination. Only a court of competent jurisdiction can make that determination. A lawyer might CLAIM that the court has jurisdiction, but the very first question any court will have to ask and answer is "does this court have proper jurisdiction." If not, the case is dismissed.


Well yes. OK, I suppose I should have said, "If the human rights lawyer believes that the court has jurisdiction (and the court accepts the case)....etc etc" - I did not expect such a fine dissection of my text. I must admit that at least your replies to threads are unlikely to contain expletives, which is nice.


You're welcome. Precision in argumentation helps avoid misunderstanding.
Image Visit The Broadside © 2011 Altnews
User avatar
Seth
Banned Troll
 
Posts: 3256

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

#163  Postby Lion IRC » Apr 15, 2010 3:55 am

Many countries have mandatory reporting of suspected child abuse and it is an offence not to. Similarly most jurisdictions have provision to charge someone for;

Aiding and abetting
Being an accessory after the fact
Harboring a known felon
Perverting the course of justice.
Destroying evidence.

The clock is ticking. The bible is getting louder. Time to reap what has been sown.

The pope knows exactly what is meant by submission to “governing authorities” (Romans 13.1) and he knows that “rendering unto Caesar” is not JUST about paying taxes.

Nicodemus (a religious leader) secretly came to Jesus under the cover of night. Noting this, Jesus warned him about evil doers who prefer to do things in the darkness. (John 3:19) And the pope knows “Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed”

A millstone really would have been better for anyone who contributed to sin involving “these little ones”. The pope knows full well the words of Jesus which say woe to those “through whom” these sinful things come – the facilitators of sin against children who lie to or abuse children or try to teach them that such things are NOT sins. (Luke 17:1)

The people affected by this abuse are not a small proportion. There are perhaps a billion catholic victims of this abuse wondering how any one in charge could have been so stupid and egotistical as to think “the reputation” of the church was worth selling so cheaply. 30 pieces of silver for gullible Judas to betray Jesus?

What possessed any church leader to think that the discovery of a pedophile needed to be covered up for “the greater good”? What a joke. What lack of faith in God!

Satan must be laughing so hard.

Lion (IRC)
FORMAL DEBATE - Lion IRC (affirmative) vs Crocodile Gandhi (negative)
Topic - Gay marriage should not be legalised in society.
Moderator - Durro
Now Showing HERE.
User avatar
Lion IRC
Banned Troll
 
Posts: 4077

Print view this post

Re: Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

#164  Postby hotshoe » Apr 15, 2010 4:21 am

Lion IRC wrote:Many countries have mandatory reporting of suspected child abuse and it is an offence not to. Similarly most jurisdictions have provision to charge someone for;

Aiding and abetting
Being an accessory after the fact
Harboring a known felon
Perverting the course of justice.
Destroying evidence.

The clock is ticking. The bible is getting louder. Time to reap what has been sown.

The pope knows exactly what is meant by submission to “governing authorities” (Romans 13.1) and he knows that “rendering unto Caesar” is not JUST about paying taxes.

Nicodemus (a religious leader) secretly came to Jesus under the cover of night. Noting this, Jesus warned him about evil doers who prefer to do things in the darkness. (John 3:19) And the pope knows “Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed”

A millstone really would have been better for anyone who contributed to sin involving “these little ones”. The pope knows full well the words of Jesus which say woe to those “through whom” these sinful things come – the facilitators of sin against children who lie to or abuse children or try to teach them that such things are NOT sins. (Luke 17:1)

The people affected by this abuse are not a small proportion. There are perhaps a billion catholic victims of this abuse wondering how any one in charge could have been so stupid and egotistical as to think “the reputation” of the church was worth selling so cheaply. 30 pieces of silver for gullible Judas to betray Jesus?

What possessed any church leader to think that the discovery of a pedophile needed to be covered up for “the greater good”? What a joke. What lack of faith in God!

Satan must be laughing so hard.

Lion (IRC)



Bravo, Lion. Well said.
Now, when I talked to God I knew he'd understand
He said, "Stick by my side and I'll be your guiding hand
But don't ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answer that you want me to"
hotshoe
 
Posts: 3177

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

#165  Postby Beatrice » Apr 15, 2010 5:56 am

Lion IRC wrote:What possessed any church leader to think that the discovery of a pedophile needed to be covered up for “the greater good”? What a joke. What lack of faith in God!


:clap:
Phew... for a minute there, I lost myself, I lost myself.....
"GOD" is an acronym which stands for "GOD Over Djinn".
User avatar
Beatrice
RS Donator
 
Name:
Posts: 3327
Female

Country: New Zealand
Jolly Roger (arr)
Print view this post

Re: Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

#166  Postby DoctorE » Apr 15, 2010 7:35 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ccbVCxWNn8[/youtube]
User avatar
DoctorE
 
Posts: 9417
Age: 54
Male

Iceland (is)
Print view this post

Re: Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

#167  Postby monkeyboy » Apr 15, 2010 7:55 am

Ragwortshire wrote:
Dragon83uk wrote:Ideally it would be good to get some Catholics on side with this issue, that way it's not just "those ebil atheistsTM" that are attacking the pope for religious reasons but more humanity taking a strong united stance against a criminal who feels he is protected.

And this is the sort of thing that will achieve exactly the opposite.

If this was the British Government - or even someone representing abuse victims - that wanted to bring a case against the Pope, then I would have to examine the evidence. And even though I'd likely be biased, if I thought the evidence was convincing, I would support him being arrested (and also support us finding a new Pope).

But Dawkins and Hitchens? Two men who very clearly have a vested interest in attacking religion? In that case, I'll just look on it as frivolous harassment. In fact this is about the only way I can think of of getting me to defend Benedict XVI unreservedly. Nice going.
Also, reading The Selfish Gene at the moment: I remember when Dawkins was best known as an evolutionary biologist. Now the Times calls him an atheist campaigner. :(


My bold. Are you seriously suggesting that because it's Dawkins and Hitchens a barrister and solicitor known to Dawkins and Hitchens (my edit having read further through the thread after this post.) having a go at the Pope and that they may have more than one agenda here, you would be likely to be able to defend him? On this issue of child abuse? Do the claws go in so deep that you can't seperate out your faith from someone behaving in a completely abhorrent fashion and willfully covering up abuse just because you have issues with the accuser. And you'd likely be biased when reviewing the evidence would you? Just goes to show how deep this faith over reason problem is.
Maybe it takes someone with little or no regard for the various sensitivities involved in criticising this so called "representitive of God" to actually have the balls to threaten such action. It's just a shame that so many people will cringe over the scandal and embarrasment it may cause that I imagine we won't get to see the pompous twat in a court of law over this whole affair.
Last edited by monkeyboy on Apr 15, 2010 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Bible is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies.
Mark Twain
User avatar
monkeyboy
 
Posts: 1849
Male

England (eng)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

#168  Postby Trainz » Apr 15, 2010 8:01 am

re: Richard Dawkins on CNN: Atheist Calls For Pope's Arrestvideo

:clap:

Indeed Prof Dawkins, indeed...

I highly doubt though that this is the final strike against Catholics though.
User avatar
Trainz
 
Posts: 48

Print view this post

Re: Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

#169  Postby monkeyboy » Apr 15, 2010 8:28 am

theidiot wrote:
cursuswalker wrote:This will not succeed of course.

But the point is to make the authorities feel uncomfortable, as it will show up the hypocrisy of religious special pleading.


Or the whole spectacle reveals itself as an idiotic publicity stunt by a pathetic popular atheist. Anyone who believes that the pope did something illegal is trapped in a delusional world far from the actual facts. I doubt any court would take such allegations seriously, and nothing will come of this, other than Dawkins getting some more media attention, and atheist solidifying their position as the least liked group in America.


So are you suggesting that the Pope didn't in fact conspire to cover up child abuse? That he din't sign this letter,

Most Excellent Bishop

Having received your letter of September 13 of this year, regarding the matter of the removal from all priestly burdens pertaining to Rev Stephen Miller Kiesle in your diocese, it is my duty to share with you the following:

This court, although it regards the arguments presented in favour of removal in this case to be of grave significance, nevertheless deems it necessary to consider the good of the Universal Church together with that of the petitioner, and it is also unable to make light of the detriment that granting the dispensation can provoke with the community of Christ's faithful, particularly regarding the young age of the petitioner.

It is necessary for this Congregation to submit incidents of this sort to very careful consideration, which necessitates a longer period of time.

In the meantime your Excellency must not fail to provide the petitioner with as much paternal care as possible and in addition to explain to same the rationale of this court, which is accustomed to proceed keeping the common good especially before its eyes.

Let me take this occasion to convey sentiments of the highest regard always to you.

Your most Reverend Excellency

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger


It would appear that the facts support the allegation that the Pope full well knew about child abuse cases and didn't just do fuck all, he actually took the time to give the reputation of the church consideration. He actually considered the cost to the church over the damage and harm to the victims of abuse, conspiring with others to subvert information rather than report it to the police. It makes me extremely billious to think anyone can remotely defend this morally repugnant individual and anyone else whose first reaction on being presented with a victim of child abuse wasn't to call the police.
The Bible is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies.
Mark Twain
User avatar
monkeyboy
 
Posts: 1849
Male

England (eng)
Print view this post

Re: Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

#170  Postby Calum » Apr 15, 2010 9:07 am

monkeyboy wrote:
theidiot wrote:
cursuswalker wrote:This will not succeed of course.

But the point is to make the authorities feel uncomfortable, as it will show up the hypocrisy of religious special pleading.


Or the whole spectacle reveals itself as an idiotic publicity stunt by a pathetic popular atheist. Anyone who believes that the pope did something illegal is trapped in a delusional world far from the actual facts. I doubt any court would take such allegations seriously, and nothing will come of this, other than Dawkins getting some more media attention, and atheist solidifying their position as the least liked group in America.


So are you suggesting that the Pope didn't in fact conspire to cover up child abuse? That he din't sign this letter,

Most Excellent Bishop

Having received your letter of September 13 of this year, regarding the matter of the removal from all priestly burdens pertaining to Rev Stephen Miller Kiesle in your diocese, it is my duty to share with you the following:

This court, although it regards the arguments presented in favour of removal in this case to be of grave significance, nevertheless deems it necessary to consider the good of the Universal Church together with that of the petitioner, and it is also unable to make light of the detriment that granting the dispensation can provoke with the community of Christ's faithful, particularly regarding the young age of the petitioner.

It is necessary for this Congregation to submit incidents of this sort to very careful consideration, which necessitates a longer period of time.

In the meantime your Excellency must not fail to provide the petitioner with as much paternal care as possible and in addition to explain to same the rationale of this court, which is accustomed to proceed keeping the common good especially before its eyes.

Let me take this occasion to convey sentiments of the highest regard always to you.

Your most Reverend Excellency

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger


It would appear that the facts support the allegation that the Pope full well knew about child abuse cases and didn't just do fuck all, he actually took the time to give the reputation of the church consideration. He actually considered the cost to the church over the damage and harm to the victims of abuse, conspiring with others to subvert information rather than report it to the police. It makes me extremely billious to think anyone can remotely defend this morally repugnant individual and anyone else whose first reaction on being presented with a victim of child abuse wasn't to call the police.



At the time of the letter the priest had already been dealt with by the US Justice System. The letter was about whether he should be kicked out the priesthood. See Tim O'Neill's excellent description of the background to the events here:

christianity/richard-dawkins-i-will-arrest-pope-benedict-xvi-t4867-110.html#p131000
Last edited by Calum on Apr 15, 2010 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Calum
RS Donator
 
Posts: 244

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

#171  Postby Eager non-theist » Apr 15, 2010 9:08 am

I think both the pope AND the paedophile bishop should be arrested, but what the hell is a "crime against humanity"?
Eager non-theist
 
Posts: 41

Puerto Rico (pr)
Print view this post

Re: Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

#172  Postby Scarlett » Apr 15, 2010 9:28 am

Eager non-theist wrote:I think both the pope AND the paedophile bishop should be arrested, but what the hell is a "crime against humanity"?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_against_humanity
"The stupid bitch"

" ..the Scottish bitch.."

" Too much PC and stupid women."

"..Paula (who still thinks she is the forum pin-up)."


Prize for guessing who? :naughty2:
User avatar
Scarlett
 
Posts: 14633
Female

Scotland (ss)
Print view this post

Re: Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

#173  Postby God » Apr 15, 2010 9:36 am

I havent had time to read through the whole thread, so this probably already has been posted. : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VaC95jEPTc

I have to admit this guy is right, arresting the pope will do nothing. But it will make a great statement if they can get it done and i guess if they can't cause 1billion people to disown the catholic Chruch, the next best thing to do is target the leaders.

Any negative publicity for the church is good publicity for us! But, lets not get too carried away, the chances of this happening are small and they won't be accomplishing anything other than making a decent statement...
God
 
Posts: 16
Male

Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

#174  Postby Eager non-theist » Apr 15, 2010 9:48 am

I don't know about anyone else, but i think the word crime should only mean "against the Law" like it should be.
Eager non-theist
 
Posts: 41

Puerto Rico (pr)
Print view this post

Re: Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

#175  Postby Matt_B » Apr 15, 2010 10:02 am

Eager non-theist wrote:I don't know about anyone else, but i think the word crime should only mean "against the Law" like it should be.


Perhaps, but "crimes against humanity" have been codified and are now included as part of "the law" in most jurisdictions and this has been the case for at least some of he time when the abuse cases took place.

Keeping a level head about it though, it's quite possible that any case Robertson puts together will be dismissed as an abuse of the legal system. However, that doesn't mean that there's no reason for him to try.
User avatar
Matt_B
 
Posts: 3276
Male

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

#176  Postby Matt_B » Apr 15, 2010 3:30 pm

Oh, and here's the inevitable Downfall parody:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5spUtCNpLbQ
User avatar
Matt_B
 
Posts: 3276
Male

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

#177  Postby Byron » Apr 15, 2010 4:03 pm

Seth wrote:
Moreover, the ICC does not have jurisdiction over non-signatory nations, and I don't believe the Vatican has ever subscribed to ICC or UN jurisdiction.

And the Swiss Guard would object to the notion that the Vatican "does not have borders that are policed." They've been doing it since 1506.

Image

"Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough."

(I wouldn't mess with anyone who has the cojones to dress like that!)

In addition to signing up to the ICC, I believe the accused's country of residence has to be incompetent to try him (which is why notions of trying Anthony Blair in the Hague are a pipe-dream). The Vatican hands criminals caught in the Vatican over to the Italian state, which tries them.

Geoffrey Robertson QC wrote a superb account of the trial and execution of Charles I (I disagree with most of his conclusions, but it's full of interesting material), but this idea, and his claim that extraditing Gary McKinnon to the USA would violate the English Bill of Rights, suggest that his legal suggestions are going off the wall. Points for inventiveness, though.
"Despising, for you, the city, thus I turn my back: there is a world elsewhere."

Coriolanus, Coriolanus

Ms. Lovelace © Ms. Padua, resident of 2D Goggles
User avatar
Byron
 
Posts: 9077
Male

Country: Albion
Print view this post

Re: Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

#178  Postby Bathynomus Giganteus » Apr 15, 2010 4:52 pm

The crimes weren't commited inside the vatican. Wasn't Ratziger in Germany when he was covering up the kiddyfiddling?
And the crime he covered up was in the USA. Both are UN countries. International law applies.
If the human brain was simple enough for us to understand, we would be too simple to understand it.
User avatar
Bathynomus Giganteus
 
Posts: 308
Age: 43
Male

England (eng)
Print view this post

Re: Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

#179  Postby Matt_B » Apr 15, 2010 5:22 pm

Bathynomus Giganteus wrote:The crimes weren't commited inside the vatican. Wasn't Ratziger in Germany when he was covering up the kiddyfiddling?
And the crime he covered up was in the USA. Both are UN countries. International law applies.


There's a lengthy list of the countries in which relevant cases have taken place here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Cath ... by_country

There are plenty of EU members and ICC signatories in there, and a number of cases after when Benny took office as the Pope too. That's not to say that Robertson will be able to string together a case against the Pope and other Vatican officials out of them, but I'm sure he'll have a good go at it.
User avatar
Matt_B
 
Posts: 3276
Male

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

#180  Postby Byron » Apr 15, 2010 6:34 pm

Bathynomus Giganteus wrote:Both [Germany and the USA] are UN countries. International law applies.

There's no such thing as "international law" in this context (it's a concept, not a legal code). There's the ICC treaty, and whatever laws Germany has passed. (The USA hasn't signed up to the ICC, & there's no UN court with the jurisdiction to try Benedict.) As Germany clearly has a functioning legal system competent to try the Pope, the ICC isn't really relevant, and for anything to happen, Germany would have to initiate proceedings against Benedict, and Britain would have to have some domestic law that authorized his arrest. (When Pinochet was nicked, a Spanish judge, Baltasar Garzón, issued an arrest warrant, and we had a law on the books, which I referenced earlier.)

Even at the theoretical stage -- which, as we all know, is as far as this ever goes -- the whole concept falls apart.
"Despising, for you, the city, thus I turn my back: there is a world elsewhere."

Coriolanus, Coriolanus

Ms. Lovelace © Ms. Padua, resident of 2D Goggles
User avatar
Byron
 
Posts: 9077
Male

Country: Albion
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Christianity

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest