SAW and the Passion of Christ

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

Moderators: Blip, DarthHelmet86

SAW and the Passion of Christ

#1  Postby theidiot » Feb 26, 2010 5:44 pm

I'm just curious how atheist here would assess the emotional attraction of the Crucifixion scene, and the attraction of watching torture porn in films like the SAW series and Hostel. Would you consider both of them to be sadomasochistic attractions? Are they products of the same psychology, or differing psychologies?

Is what draws Christians to the image of the passion scene in Gibson film, the same draw that makes the crucifixions in ancient Rome to be attractive for the mobs that come to view them? the same draws that that made the spectacle of lynching trees a family affair? If not, then what sort of other attractions is it like then?

Why do you believe the cross is attractive to many christians? Have christian parents discovered a way to make a particular something they find alluring attractive to their children, in a way that they fail to utilize in getting them to be attracted to their taste in music and clothing? Or is there already a psychological attraction to such imagery, that those raising their children as christians utilize? Is it taping into a sadomasochistic attraction or something else?
theidiot
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 783

Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: SAW and the Passion of Christ

#2  Postby stijndeloose » Feb 26, 2010 5:52 pm

Errr... I don't see how SAW and the JC story are comparable: the 'victims' in SAW are presented as guilty (or at least, the majority of them are), and punished for what they did. JC is presented as innocent.
Image
Fallible wrote:Don't bacon picnic.
User avatar
stijndeloose
Banned User
 
Name: Stdlnjo
Posts: 18554
Age: 40
Male

Belgium (be)
Print view this post

Re: SAW and the Passion of Christ

#3  Postby Sityl » Feb 26, 2010 5:54 pm

stijndeloose wrote:Errr... I don't see how SAW and the JC story are comparable: the 'victims' in SAW are presented as guilty (or at least, the majority of them are), and punished for what they did. JC is presented as innocent.


JC "sacrifices" himself despite his innocence. There's a degree more "wrongness" in that notion than in the notion of punishment for "the guilty."

(My bumper sticker idea:)
Jesus committed suicide.
Maybe you should, too.
WWJD
Stephen Colbert wrote:Now, like all great theologies, Bill [O'Reilly]'s can be boiled down to one sentence - 'There must be a god, because I don't know how things work.'


Image
User avatar
Sityl
 
Name: Ser Sityllan Payne
Posts: 5131
Age: 39
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: SAW and the Passion of Christ

#4  Postby theidiot » Feb 26, 2010 6:00 pm

stijndeloose wrote:Errr... I don't see how SAW and the JC story are comparable: the 'victims' in SAW are presented as guilty (or at least, the majority of them are), and punished for what they did. JC is presented as innocent.


I'm interested in the emotional attraction of it, the feelings the scenes evoke, rather than any theology behind them.
theidiot
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 783

Print view this post

Re: SAW and the Passion of Christ

#5  Postby Apollonius » Feb 26, 2010 6:14 pm

theidiot wrote:I'm just curious how atheist here would assess the emotional attraction of the Crucifixion scene, and the attraction of watching torture porn in films like the SAW series and Hostel. Would you consider both of them to be sadomasochistic attractions? Are they products of the same psychology, or differing psychologies?

Is what draws Christians to the image of the passion scene in Gibson film, the same draw that makes the crucifixions in ancient Rome to be attractive for the mobs that come to view them? the same draws that that made the spectacle of lynching trees a family affair? If not, then what sort of other attractions is it like then?

Why do you believe the cross is attractive to many christians? Have christian parents discovered a way to make a particular something they find alluring attractive to their children, in a way that they fail to utilize in getting them to be attracted to their taste in music and clothing? Or is there already a psychological attraction to such imagery, that those raising their children as christians utilize? Is it taping into a sadomasochistic attraction or something else?


They are different. The believer is sucked into the emotional story of suffering for a reason. They think this happened because people were sinners, and god was willing to let his kid be treated that way to somehow shame them into thinking that they should feel guilty for this sin, and look what happened as a result.

It's like the story people hear about military vets. "You better salute the flag and respect the dead, and agree with the government's wars because they died for your freedom...."

Same shit.
Healing the sick, casting out demons, and raising the dead since the first century...
User avatar
Apollonius
 
Posts: 762
Male

Print view this post

Re: SAW and the Passion of Christ

#6  Postby XiledSpawn » Feb 26, 2010 6:22 pm

theidiot wrote:the feelings the scenes evoke


Havn't seen passion of the christ, but the only thing running through my mind watching the saw movies was "Shiiiiit owe owe Shiiiiiiiit fucking owe"
"Until that day, that all are one" ~ Optimus Prime

Everybody equal, everybody loved!
User avatar
XiledSpawn
RS Donator
 
Name: Michael Smith
Posts: 834
Age: 33
Male

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: SAW and the Passion of Christ

#7  Postby stijndeloose » Feb 26, 2010 6:25 pm

XiledSpawn wrote:
theidiot wrote:the feelings the scenes evoke


Havn't seen passion of the christ, but the only thing running through my mind watching the saw movies was "Shiiiiit owe owe Shiiiiiiiit fucking owe"


I mainly thought: "why I am watching this crap?" I didn't turn it off, though. :mrgreen:
Image
Fallible wrote:Don't bacon picnic.
User avatar
stijndeloose
Banned User
 
Name: Stdlnjo
Posts: 18554
Age: 40
Male

Belgium (be)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: SAW and the Passion of Christ

#8  Postby theidiot » Feb 26, 2010 6:30 pm

Apollonius wrote:

They are different. The believer is sucked into the emotional story of suffering for a reason. They think this happened because people were sinners, and god was willing to let his kid be treated that way to somehow shame them into thinking that they should feel guilty for this sin, and look what happened as a result.


So you believe that without these teaching the image of Jesus crucified is not moving at all? It's an image that sparks indifference?

I suggest you learn the difference between the feelings an image evokes, and the meaning we attempt to ascribe to it. The image can evoke those feelings with out any sort of rationalized meaning ascribed to it at all.

It's like the story people hear about military vets. "You better salute the flag and respect the dead, and agree with the government's wars because they died for your freedom...."


Notice here, you're speaking about an exploitation of our natural feelings, rather than being the actual source that provokes them.
theidiot
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 783

Print view this post

Re: SAW and the Passion of Christ

#9  Postby Lucid Anomaly » Feb 27, 2010 12:33 pm

theidiot wrote: Are they products of the same psychology, or differing psychologies?

Is what draws Christians to the image of the passion scene in Gibson film, the same draw that makes the crucifixions in ancient Rome to be attractive for the mobs that come to view them? the same draws that that made the spectacle of lynching trees a family affair? If not, then what sort of other attractions is it like then?

Why do you believe the cross is attractive to many christians? Have christian parents discovered a way to make a particular something they find alluring attractive to their children, in a way that they fail to utilize in getting them to be attracted to their taste in music and clothing? Or is there already a psychological attraction to such imagery, that those raising their children as christians utilize? Is it taping into a sadomasochistic attraction or something else?


Differing psychologies of course. Christ died for our sins. The people in the SAW movies died because the main villian wanted to kill people in elaborate ways for kicks. It's not like Christians went out to see the (Passion) for the same reasons Atheists went out to see the SAW movies. The (Passion) was sought by Christians and even non-christians because it was a modern day depiction of the story of Jesus. Sure, maybe a couple of people bought tickets to The (Passion) to get off at the crucifixion scene. That's entirely possible.

As for 'the spectacle of lynching tress'. Can you clarify what you mean by this?

The cross is attractive to christians because it is the main symbol of their religion. How have christian parents discoved a way to make a particular something (whatever that means) attractive to their children? I'm not sure I know the answer to that. What do you think? I suppose they fail at attracting their children to the music or clothing the parents like due to the fact that those issues are fairly trivial and can certainly take a backseat when the fate of their childs soul is to be nurtured and protected.

As for the last of your post. Moral Oral is my favorite show to watch on teletoon aswell :hand:
Lucid Anomaly
 
Posts: 17

Print view this post

Re: SAW and the Passion of Christ

#10  Postby matt4 » Feb 27, 2010 5:16 pm

Lucid Anomaly wrote:
It's not like Christians went out to see the (Passion) for the same reasons Atheists went out to see the SAW movies. The (Passion) was sought by Christians and even non-christians because it was a modern day depiction of the story of Jesus.


It's not like Christians went out to see the (Passion) for the same reasons Atheists went out to see the SAW movies? Every Christian I know has seen at least 2 of the SAW movies. Most of them loved the first one. What exactly are you getting at?

Matt
matt4
 
Posts: 2

Print view this post

Re: SAW and the Passion of Christ

#11  Postby Alan B » Feb 27, 2010 6:34 pm

It's the same thing as the crowd around Madame Guillotine - they wanna see blood!
I have NO BELIEF in the existence of a God or gods. I do not have to offer evidence nor do I have to determine absence of evidence because I do not ASSERT that a God does or does not or gods do or do not exist.
User avatar
Alan B
 
Posts: 9999
Age: 84
Male

Country: UK (Birmingham)
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: SAW and the Passion of Christ

#12  Postby ixolite » Feb 27, 2010 7:28 pm

Would you consider both of them to be sadomasochistic attractions? Are they products of the same psychology, or differing psychologies?


Christians, at least the more fundie ones, generally object to movies with violence. Horrofans don't.

Otoh Christians have no problems watching the passion, some even make their kids watch it. :scratch:

Maybe from a christian point of view: violence = bad, but suffering = acceptable to watch? :scratch:

Yet, I somehow doubt 'Martyrs' would get christian approval. Image

I guess that it's only acceptable to watch because Jesus is in it, regardless of the violence. Image
User avatar
ixolite
 
Posts: 449
Age: 46
Female

Country: D
Germany (de)
Print view this post

Re: SAW and the Passion of Christ

#13  Postby Lucid Anomaly » Feb 28, 2010 2:16 am

matt4 wrote:
Lucid Anomaly wrote:
It's not like Christians went out to see the (Passion) for the same reasons Atheists went out to see the SAW movies. The (Passion) was sought by Christians and even non-christians because it was a modern day depiction of the story of Jesus.


It's not like Christians went out to see the (Passion) for the same reasons Atheists went out to see the SAW movies? Every Christian I know has seen at least 2 of the SAW movies. Most of them loved the first one. What exactly are you getting at?

Matt


I think I am 'getting at' what would appear to be close to the same thing theidiot is getting at when s/he quotes:
"the same draw that makes the crucifixions in ancient Rome to be attractive for the mobs that come to view them? the same draws that that made the spectacle of lynching trees a family affair"
Notice the 'the same draws'.

Regardless of your examples (which I am not debating as I have watched 3 SAW movies) I am not convinced that they are to be held in lieu with empirical statistics :snooty:
Lucid Anomaly
 
Posts: 17

Print view this post

Re: SAW and the Passion of Christ

#14  Postby I'm With Stupid » Feb 28, 2010 2:39 am

I haven't see Passion, but I don't accept this argument that Saw is "torture porn" as some have labelled it. There are obviously elements of the stuff that makes you wince when you see it, but you get that in all horror films. It's always particular things too, and not necessarily the most gruesome or most graphic (which is quite a separate appeal imo). It's stuff like when the girl gets hung on the meat hook between her shoulder blades on Texas Chainsaw. It's very specific things that make you wince in that way, and I think Saw has quite a few of them. It's the difference between seeing someone's head explode, and seeing someone's teeth pulled out with pliers. I can only speak for myself, but only the latter gets me in that way. It's like the paper cut between your fingers. It's not the worst injury you're ever going to get, but there's something about it that sends shivers down your spine in a way that certain other injuries don't. So yeah, it might be interesting to investigate why certain types of injuries seem to have a greater psychological effect on us.

But the main appeal of Saw (I've only seen the first one) is the mystery of it and the dilemmas the characters are put in and the tension that results. It's like the story about the man that cut through his own arm after if got caught under a rock so that he could get back to safety. You don't need to see it, because it's not the graphic nature of it that captures people's imagination, it's the dilemma involved. And if you can combine that with one of the sorts of injuries I mentioned above, the dilemma is heightened further, because of the intense reaction to the thing you're being asked to do.
Image
User avatar
I'm With Stupid
 
Posts: 9563
Age: 36
Male

Country: Malaysia
Jolly Roger (arr)
Print view this post

Re: SAW and the Passion of Christ

#15  Postby xrayzed » Mar 01, 2010 12:03 pm

I thought Saw was utter rubbish. I hated it on pretty much every level - badly plotted, badly written, badly acted.

I was with two guys who were horror fans who loved it. I spent most of the film looking at my watch and wishing my watch would move faster.
A thinking creationist is an oxymoron. A non-thinking creationist is just a moron.
(Source: johannessiig, here)
User avatar
xrayzed
 
Posts: 1053
Age: 62
Male

Jolly Roger (arr)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: SAW and the Passion of Christ

#16  Postby sepermeru » Mar 01, 2010 12:10 pm

"Torture porn" is a term invented to sell movies that are more shocking in theory than actuality, which is how horror and gore have been sold since the first Teamster chucked the first bucket of chicken guts on the first pretty young thing that shrieked when the lights went out. There have been a few truly brutal films that crossed the lines of decency made, but none of them are major American film franchises or blockbusters, you can be completely sure of that.

That said, I don't see much difference between the graphic violence of Saw and that of Passion. The context doesn't matter much, so the innocence and guilt aspects don't alter the real message. It's the subtext that matters, and in both cases the subtext is "with enough power, you too could be as cruel as god".
I assert that there are no gods, that any possible "god" discovered wouldn't fit any existing definition of the word, and that any theology or theist claiming to possess any truth about a god or gods is wrong.
User avatar
sepermeru
 
Posts: 67
Male

Print view this post


Return to Christianity

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest

cron