Slavery is inconsistent with who God is.

Matt Dillahunty goes off on one

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Slavery is inconsistent with who God is.

#1  Postby quisquose » Oct 20, 2013 9:40 pm

Just been listening to last week's Atheist Experience.

#835: Matt Flies Solo

Towards the end some guy makes the statement that "Slavery is inconsistent with who God is".

Matt's response seems to suggest that he disagrees:

How can they possibly say that? If the only thing that we know of what God reportedly is, is this book that describes his character and portrays what his commandments are, what his wishes are. How can anybody possibly claim that this is inconsistent?

People try to claim that he’s just a loving God, well the entire Old-Testament is pretty much a comedy of God’s errors and anger.

He creates two people, sticks them in a garden in the most absurd situation, says don’t eat from this tree. I realise he was probably a first time parent in this scenario, but I think even the dumbest parent would know what was going to happen there. So he has to punish them and exile them. Then the whole world goes to hell shortly thereafter, and so he picks out the most righteous man and his family and decides to build a ridiculous boat, which isn't seaworthy, and couldn't hold all the animals, and then he’s going to flood and kill everything except for this family, at least if you go for global flood which we know scientifically just is absurd and no other civilisations seemed to notice this global flood, so it must have been a local flood which doesn't actually solve the problem of sin.

And then right after Noah you've got a couple of hundred years where they do this massive population growth and they’re building a tower of Babel, which I don’t know why a God would be the slightest bit bothered, this was clearly the mindset of the these ancient people that God lives somewhere up in the sky, even though modern theologians say that’s not it at all because clearly we can travel to the moon, I don’t know if we waved to God when we went past, and that fails and falls apart so then God decides instead trying to save everybody he’s just going to pick out his one favourite tribe that happened to be enslaved, I'm pretty sure they should have realised there was a problem with slavery, and goes through this incredible scenario of we’re going to give all these plagues and every time Pharaoh wants to actually let them go God comes down and specifically hardens his heart so that he can show off a bit more, “I want you to let them go but I'm not going to let you make that...”, he violated Pharaoh’s free will, it’s explicitly there, he hardened Pharaohs heart so that he couldn't do it, gets all the plagues out of the way, then these 3 million Jews, for which there’s no evidence that they were ever in Egypt, and if they held hand to hand they would have stretched from Egypt to Canaan in the first place, they’re led across ... all these miracles and everything else, miracles that would WOW anybody living today, they get to Mount Ararat and Moses is gone for 40 days and then these guys say “screw that God we’ll make another one!”.

This guy can’t do anything right. And yet he specifically chose this universe, where he knew he was going to have to keep failing and keep killing, and keep failing and keep killing, until he picked out his own little special group and send them around to keep failing and keep killing.

And then there’s this empty period, and he decides “you know what, I'm going to take human form, come down sacrifice myself to myself, to act as a loophole for rules that I created that I can’t circumvent”.

I mean, it is logically absurd.


:lol:
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Re: Slavery is inconsistent with who God is.

#2  Postby Thommo » Oct 20, 2013 10:52 pm

That's pretty awesome to be honest, I found it highly amusing, and infinitely more logical than a lot of the "arguments" and theodicies that doubtless will be deployed to rebut it.
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Re: Slavery is inconsistent with who God is.

#3  Postby Byron » Oct 20, 2013 11:37 pm

"Slave to Christ" is a term still used by the flintier type of protestant. Christianity teaches absolute and unquestioning obedience to a heavenly bossman, with severe punishment if we go against his whim. Sounds like slavery to me.
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Re: Slavery is inconsistent with who God is.

#4  Postby Blackadder » Oct 21, 2013 12:54 pm

Byron wrote:"Slave to Christ" is a term still used by the flintier type of protestant. Christianity teaches absolute and unquestioning obedience to a heavenly bossman, with severe punishment if we go against his whim. Sounds like slavery to me.


And the word "muslim" is supposed to mean "one who submits with obedience" or "one who surrenders to another's will". Sounds a lot like slavery to me.
That credulity should be gross in proportion to the ignorance of the mind that it enslaves, is in strict consistency with the principle of human nature. - Percy Bysshe Shelley
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Re: Slavery is inconsistent with who God is.

#5  Postby chairman bill » Oct 21, 2013 1:27 pm

But blindly following the rules of God frees you from having to think. Thinking is slavery. Religious fuckwittery sets you free
“There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.” Terry Pratchett
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Re: Slavery is inconsistent with who God is.

#6  Postby Blackadder » Oct 21, 2013 1:41 pm

chairman bill wrote:But blindly following the rules of God frees you from having to think. Thinking is slavery. Religious fuckwittery sets you free


CB, you have no idea how close your parody is to the actuality. I have sat and listened to a mullah tell a study group that unbelievers are trapped in a void without morality, ethics and social constructs and so they have to exert constant effort to define these principles for themselves, then the sand shifts under their feet and they have to reinvent them all over again. They are therefore prisoners of the void and condemned to run on this wheel until they die and then realise too late that they were deluded. Whereas the believer is set FREE by Allah's divine wisdom and doesn't have to think about this stuff as it is handed to him/her on a plate (or in a book). Seriously, with a straight face.

I was trying not to look like:

:jawdrop:
That credulity should be gross in proportion to the ignorance of the mind that it enslaves, is in strict consistency with the principle of human nature. - Percy Bysshe Shelley
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Re: Slavery is inconsistent with who God is.

#7  Postby quisquose » Oct 21, 2013 8:42 pm

I should have provided the link to the video.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/axp/2013/10 ... lies-solo/

Matt's rant starts at 52:45.
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Re: Slavery is inconsistent with who God is.

#8  Postby willhud9 » Oct 21, 2013 9:54 pm

You can even see it within Bible translations the struggles between how to interpret a word with a very striaghtforward meaning:

The NIV, Newly Interpreted Version as I call it, reads Philippians 1:1-2 as :

Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus,
To all God’s holy people in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


The Holman Christian Standard, the Baptist translation reads:

Paul and Timothy, slaves of Christ Jesus:
To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons.
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


δοῦλος the word translated as slave and servant literally meant slave. The concept was God is the master. He ransomed you with Jesus and he owns you. The literature is there. Now you can argue that it is a good slavery, but it still is slavery to God.
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Re: Slavery is inconsistent with who God is.

#9  Postby Moonwatcher » Oct 27, 2013 11:24 pm

Yes, it boggles my mind how people can read the Bible and then say slavery is not consistent with who the biblical god is.

But its the same selective thought processes that allow them to believe in the mythology they happened to grow up on to begin with.
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Re: Slavery is inconsistent with who God is.

#10  Postby Byron » Oct 28, 2013 12:48 am

Moonwatcher wrote:Yes, it boggles my mind how people can read the Bible and then say slavery is not consistent with who the biblical god is.

But its the same selective thought processes that allow them to believe in the mythology they happened to grow up on to begin with.

Good ol' cognitive dissonance/confirmation bias.

We know that slavery is very, very wrong, therefore of course God must condemn it also. (There's a smattering of hardcore Christians who put dogma above all and defend slaveholding. Bravo, I guess. :yuk: ) How do we know it? Thousands of years of experience and ethical development The Bible tells us so. Even though it appears to support slaveholding. Thanks to our painstaking eisegesis exegesis, we know that, when Paul and "Peter" told slaves to obey their masters, good and bad, what they really meant was ...
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Re: Slavery is inconsistent with who God is.

#11  Postby willhud9 » Oct 28, 2013 1:14 am

Byron wrote:
Moonwatcher wrote:Yes, it boggles my mind how people can read the Bible and then say slavery is not consistent with who the biblical god is.

But its the same selective thought processes that allow them to believe in the mythology they happened to grow up on to begin with.

Good ol' cognitive dissonance/confirmation bias.

We know that slavery is very, very wrong, therefore of course God must condemn it also. (There's a smattering of hardcore Christians who put dogma above all and defend slaveholding. Bravo, I guess. :yuk: ) How do we know it? Thousands of years of experience and ethical development The Bible tells us so. Even though it appears to support slaveholding. Thanks to our painstaking eisegesis exegesis, we know that, when Paul and "Peter" told slaves to obey their masters, good and bad, what they really meant was ...


Their bond masters obviously. Those people simply owed a debt, much like a person does with an employer. It wasn't actual slavery. :snooty:
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Re: Slavery is inconsistent with who God is.

#12  Postby Onyx8 » Oct 28, 2013 1:51 am

The 'no real slave defence'?
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
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Re: Slavery is inconsistent with who God is.

#13  Postby Agrippina » Oct 28, 2013 1:37 pm

I've always loved the "sacrifice myself to myself" thing:

And then there’s this empty period, and he decides “you know what, I'm going to take human form, come down sacrifice myself to myself, to act as a loophole for rules that I created that I can’t circumvent”.
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Re: Slavery is inconsistent with who God is.

#14  Postby quisquose » Oct 28, 2013 1:45 pm

For me it's the idea that the people that were provided with actual evidence for god weren't that impressed. I remember thinking to myself if these guys weren't impressed back then, why should I or anybody else be now?

... all these miracles and everything else, miracles that would WOW anybody living today, they get to Mount Ararat and Moses is gone for 40 days and then these guys say “screw that God we’ll make another one!”


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Re: Slavery is inconsistent with who God is.

#15  Postby Agrippina » Oct 28, 2013 1:56 pm

Also there's the thousands of years of people asking for just one sign that such a being exists. You'd think that if such a being exists, he'd have figured out that "taking it on faith" is just not good enough for a species that has managed to take itself to other planets
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Re: Slavery is inconsistent with who God is.

#16  Postby Briton » Oct 28, 2013 2:10 pm

Byron wrote:There's a smattering of hardcore Christians who put dogma above all and defend slaveholding. Bravo, I guess. :yuk:


Yes, at least they're honest about what the Christian's special book says.
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