Story of Jesus Christ was fabricated to pacify and enslave

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Re: Story of Jesus Christ was fabricated to pacify and enslave

#21  Postby Calilasseia » Oct 19, 2013 12:21 am

I'm also minded to note at this juncture, that if any archaeologists did alight upon documents confirming that the Romans manipulated the local religion in this manner, and those documents passed the relevant tests, the sensation would be enormous.William Lane Craig for one would have a purple fit, and the resulting display of apoplexy would be hilarious to behold. Not to mention the sight of American fundies whingeing and bleating at having a nuclear depth charge of this sort detonated under their favourite mythological ship. The part of me that sometimes partakes of schadenfreude humour, would be claiming overtime pay if this happened. :mrgreen:

Mind you, given the extent to which Roman archaeological sites have been worked over and over again, I think something of this sort would have been found before now if it actually existed.

Whilst dwelling on this, the thought occurred to me that if you really wanted a shitstorm of cosmic proportions to be unleashed, find evidence that the Koran was faked. Now that would probably be enough to start World War III. :mrgreen:
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Re: Story of Jesus Christ was fabricated to pacify and enslave

#22  Postby Goldenmane » Oct 19, 2013 12:45 am

Byron wrote:
Calilasseia wrote:Well of course myths don't arise in a vacuum. As a consequence, I'm perfectly happy to operate on the basis that a real individual existed upon which the Jesus story was based, especially if there exists scholarly work pointing to appropriate evidence on this matter. Not that this would in any way validate the assorted weird and wonderful supernaturalist assertions about the individual in question, which require a separate body of proper evidence to support, and for which none has been forthcoming. As to how this myth arose, well, I think we'd need something a little more convincing than yet another story to place the details on a firm foundation.

Yup, my position.

I believe Jesus was a historical figure because every early source -- friend, foe, and indifferent -- refers to him as such, in a specific time and place, within living memory. The idea that he never existed doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone until the 18th century. I'm willing to accept that it could be right, but it's got a lot of work to do, and so far, it isn't doing it, instead resorting to junk scholarship and Dan Brown "revelations." A History Channel special is doubtless in the works.

Many of its supporters seem either unable to decouple Jesus of Nazareth from Christ, or else, think that doing so gives too much ground to Christianity. Well, maybe it does (I personally think that Jesus being a failed doomsday preacher is at least as damaging to orthodox Christianity as the Jesus Myth), but it doesn't matter; we follow the evidence where it leads.


As it happens, my position is pretty much the above as well.

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Re: Story of Jesus Christ was fabricated to pacify and enslave

#23  Postby Alan B » Oct 19, 2013 3:33 pm

Calilasseia wrote:Whilst dwelling on this, the thought occurred to me that if you really wanted a shitstorm of cosmic proportions to be unleashed, find evidence that the Koran was faked. Now that would probably be enough to start World War III. :mrgreen:

Yes. But this 'Jesus was faked' story would also have repercussions on Islam because it would mean that Allah lied to Mohammed about Jesus. So much for Mo's 'revelations'.

As an aside (and strictly in conspiracy mode), I wouldn't be surprised if the Vatican pulled-out all the stops to collect and secrete any such evidence that may be found...
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Re: Story of Jesus Christ was fabricated to pacify and enslave

#24  Postby Moonwatcher » Oct 21, 2013 10:51 pm

Calilasseia wrote:I'm also minded to note at this juncture, that if any archaeologists did alight upon documents confirming that the Romans manipulated the local religion in this manner, and those documents passed the relevant tests, the sensation would be enormous.William Lane Craig for one would have a purple fit, and the resulting display of apoplexy would be hilarious to behold. Not to mention the sight of American fundies whingeing and bleating at having a nuclear depth charge of this sort detonated under their favourite mythological ship. The part of me that sometimes partakes of schadenfreude humour, would be claiming overtime pay if this happened. :mrgreen:

Mind you, given the extent to which Roman archaeological sites have been worked over and over again, I think something of this sort would have been found before now if it actually existed.

Whilst dwelling on this, the thought occurred to me that if you really wanted a shitstorm of cosmic proportions to be unleashed, find evidence that the Koran was faked. Now that would probably be enough to start World War III. :mrgreen:


I have pretty much come to the conclusion as well that the myth had some basis in a real person and that a lot of the counter is an inability to separate Jesus from Christ or a reaction that a historical person is somehow brownie points in favor of Christianity to paraphrase.

But I'm not sure there would be a shit storm if such a document was found. Fundamentalists ignore mountains of science and equally ignore blatant contradictions in their supposedly infallible, divinely inspired book. They would equally dismiss any discovery that came along.
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Re: Story of Jesus Christ was fabricated to pacify and enslave

#25  Postby james1v » Oct 21, 2013 11:05 pm

Byron wrote:
Calilasseia wrote:Well of course myths don't arise in a vacuum. As a consequence, I'm perfectly happy to operate on the basis that a real individual existed upon which the Jesus story was based, especially if there exists scholarly work pointing to appropriate evidence on this matter. Not that this would in any way validate the assorted weird and wonderful supernaturalist assertions about the individual in question, which require a separate body of proper evidence to support, and for which none has been forthcoming. As to how this myth arose, well, I think we'd need something a little more convincing than yet another story to place the details on a firm foundation.

Yup, my position.

I believe Jesus was a historical figure because every early source -- friend, foe, and indifferent -- refers to him as such, in a specific time and place, within living memory. The idea that he never existed doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone until the 18th century. I'm willing to accept that it could be right, but it's got a lot of work to do, and so far, it isn't doing it, instead resorting to junk scholarship and Dan Brown "revelations." A History Channel special is doubtless in the works.

Many of its supporters seem either unable to decouple Jesus of Nazareth from Christ, or else, think that doing so gives too much ground to Christianity. Well, maybe it does (I personally think that Jesus being a failed doomsday preacher is at least as damaging to orthodox Christianity as the Jesus Myth), but it doesn't matter; we follow the evidence where it leads.



They did no such thing B.

If they had, you, or someone else would have ponied up the documents by now. ;)
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Re: Story of Jesus Christ was fabricated to pacify and enslave

#26  Postby igorfrankensteen » Oct 21, 2013 11:31 pm

I think it all comes back to one basic thing:

humans are tool users. They use whatever they come upon, to advance them towards their personal goals. That is at the heart of just about everything in our history.

Thus, assuming Jesus did exist, as a popular preacher/teacher of some sort, everything that came afterward is best understood, neither as a magically guided fate that we are all "only players on a stage" performing, nor as a brilliantly conceived and executed nefarious plot.

What most history consists of, is the collective efforts of all sorts of people, trying to wield what was, as though it were hammers and saws. Thus whatever there was of reality to Jesus, his followers presented various people with opportunities, which all of them pursued.

The Romans a first used Christianity in the same way that more modern politicians have used the threat of Communism, or of Liberalism, or of any other belief system you can think of. As a Monster In The Night. Then in the time of Constantine, those in power in Rome decided instead, to use the very same Christianity as a tool for control of the masses, to give additional psychological power to the Emperor. There is little functional difference between declaring that the guy on top IS a god, to declaring that he is the only guy who gets to tell you what God thinks.

In short, if you follow ANY trail of evidence into the past, you will find at various points, that some branch of the trail you are following, leads directly to some plain old power-hungry human. It doesn't matter how great or how rational, or how wonderful the idea is that someone wants to hold up as a Grand Ideal, you will ALWAYS find that SOMEONE has chosen to use it to sneak into getting more of something than they deserve.

So, are there "smoking guns," that could support the idea that the stories about Jesus were manipulated into being, and some even written from the start, as tricks to fool followers and opponents into behaving in a manner profitable to power brokers? Absolutely. A veritable armory of smoking guns no doubt. But do any of them or all of them, prove therefore that from the beginning, it was all a brilliant bit of Roman skulduggery?

Nope.

Here is truth:

Observe any would be dictator/salesman/Lothario/Golddigger/etc.

Give them truth serum, and then ask them what they are going to use to fool their next victim into giving them what they want.

They will always answer with the obvious question:

"What cha got? "
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Re: Story of Jesus Christ was fabricated to pacify and enslave

#27  Postby proudfootz » Oct 22, 2013 1:15 am

james1v wrote:
Byron wrote:
Calilasseia wrote:Well of course myths don't arise in a vacuum. As a consequence, I'm perfectly happy to operate on the basis that a real individual existed upon which the Jesus story was based, especially if there exists scholarly work pointing to appropriate evidence on this matter. Not that this would in any way validate the assorted weird and wonderful supernaturalist assertions about the individual in question, which require a separate body of proper evidence to support, and for which none has been forthcoming. As to how this myth arose, well, I think we'd need something a little more convincing than yet another story to place the details on a firm foundation.

Yup, my position.

I believe Jesus was a historical figure because every early source -- friend, foe, and indifferent -- refers to him as such, in a specific time and place, within living memory. The idea that he never existed doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone until the 18th century. I'm willing to accept that it could be right, but it's got a lot of work to do, and so far, it isn't doing it, instead resorting to junk scholarship and Dan Brown "revelations." A History Channel special is doubtless in the works.

Many of its supporters seem either unable to decouple Jesus of Nazareth from Christ, or else, think that doing so gives too much ground to Christianity. Well, maybe it does (I personally think that Jesus being a failed doomsday preacher is at least as damaging to orthodox Christianity as the Jesus Myth), but it doesn't matter; we follow the evidence where it leads.



They did no such thing B.

If they had, you, or someone else would have ponied up the documents by now. ;)


I've never understood why some people feel it is so important that the preachy fuck must have existed in the first place that they are willing to be religious about it.
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Re: Story of Jesus Christ was fabricated to pacify and enslave

#28  Postby willhud9 » Oct 22, 2013 1:52 am

proudfootz wrote:
james1v wrote:
Byron wrote:
Calilasseia wrote:Well of course myths don't arise in a vacuum. As a consequence, I'm perfectly happy to operate on the basis that a real individual existed upon which the Jesus story was based, especially if there exists scholarly work pointing to appropriate evidence on this matter. Not that this would in any way validate the assorted weird and wonderful supernaturalist assertions about the individual in question, which require a separate body of proper evidence to support, and for which none has been forthcoming. As to how this myth arose, well, I think we'd need something a little more convincing than yet another story to place the details on a firm foundation.

Yup, my position.

I believe Jesus was a historical figure because every early source -- friend, foe, and indifferent -- refers to him as such, in a specific time and place, within living memory. The idea that he never existed doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone until the 18th century. I'm willing to accept that it could be right, but it's got a lot of work to do, and so far, it isn't doing it, instead resorting to junk scholarship and Dan Brown "revelations." A History Channel special is doubtless in the works.

Many of its supporters seem either unable to decouple Jesus of Nazareth from Christ, or else, think that doing so gives too much ground to Christianity. Well, maybe it does (I personally think that Jesus being a failed doomsday preacher is at least as damaging to orthodox Christianity as the Jesus Myth), but it doesn't matter; we follow the evidence where it leads.



They did no such thing B.

If they had, you, or someone else would have ponied up the documents by now. ;)


I've never understood why some people feel it is so important that the preachy fuck must have existed in the first place that they are willing to be religious about it.


Most people don't. It's the matter of history being rewritten by revisionists who are performing sloppy historical work. If Atwill seriously presented his material as serious academic work, it would be a shame for the study of history and the field of historical study.
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Re: Story of Jesus Christ was fabricated to pacify and enslave

#29  Postby proudfootz » Oct 22, 2013 2:20 am

willhud9 wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
james1v wrote:
Byron wrote:
Yup, my position.

I believe Jesus was a historical figure because every early source -- friend, foe, and indifferent -- refers to him as such, in a specific time and place, within living memory. The idea that he never existed doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone until the 18th century. I'm willing to accept that it could be right, but it's got a lot of work to do, and so far, it isn't doing it, instead resorting to junk scholarship and Dan Brown "revelations." A History Channel special is doubtless in the works.

Many of its supporters seem either unable to decouple Jesus of Nazareth from Christ, or else, think that doing so gives too much ground to Christianity. Well, maybe it does (I personally think that Jesus being a failed doomsday preacher is at least as damaging to orthodox Christianity as the Jesus Myth), but it doesn't matter; we follow the evidence where it leads.



They did no such thing B.

If they had, you, or someone else would have ponied up the documents by now. ;)


I've never understood why some people feel it is so important that the preachy fuck must have existed in the first place that they are willing to be religious about it.


Most people don't.


Of course most people don't - whether they consider biblical characters literary creations or not. That's why I included that word 'some' to modify the noun 'people'.

It's the matter of history being rewritten by revisionists who are performing sloppy historical work.


Atwill is not 'rewriting history' - he's presenting a hypothesis. It may be sloppy, it may not be. Just as the 'work' by some who make other hypotheses may be.

If Atwill seriously presented his material as serious academic work, it would be a shame for the study of history and the field of historical study.


Why would it be shameful for a scholar to present their work seriously? :scratch:

If you're claiming he's not presenting it seriously, what's your beef?

No more silly than every fucking year having yet another 'Star of Bethlehem' identified by some half-wit who thinks the bible is 'history', or yet another 'historical Jesus' book giving us the Jesus no one ever knew about... until now.
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Re: Story of Jesus Christ was fabricated to pacify and enslave

#30  Postby willhud9 » Oct 22, 2013 2:22 am

Those people are just as fucktarded as Atwill is. Atwill's hypothesis is not more an hypothesis anymore than Michael Behe's hypothesis of irreducible complexity is. It is a premise with no evidence to support it, but rudimentary, almost conspiracy theory-like, knowledge of the early church.
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Re: Story of Jesus Christ was fabricated to pacify and enslave

#31  Postby proudfootz » Oct 22, 2013 2:31 am

willhud9 wrote:Those people are just as fucktarded as Atwill is. Atwill's hypothesis is not more an hypothesis anymore than Michael Behe's hypothesis of irreducible complexity is. It is a premise with no evidence to support it, but rudimentary, almost conspiracy theory-like, knowledge of the early church.


I haven't read the book - thanks for your detailed review of his works strong and weak points. :cheers:

I find the evidence of parallels between the works of Josephus and the 'gospels' more easily explained by the 'four evangelists' plagiarizing a well-known book.
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Re: Story of Jesus Christ was fabricated to pacify and enslave

#32  Postby willhud9 » Oct 22, 2013 2:35 am

proudfootz wrote:
willhud9 wrote:Those people are just as fucktarded as Atwill is. Atwill's hypothesis is not more an hypothesis anymore than Michael Behe's hypothesis of irreducible complexity is. It is a premise with no evidence to support it, but rudimentary, almost conspiracy theory-like, knowledge of the early church.


I haven't read the book - thanks for your detailed review of his works strong and weak points. :cheers:


I didn't have to read the book. I am basing it not only off of the information in the OP but also this piece right here:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2013/10/joseph-atwill-has-not-proven-that-jesus-was-made-up-by-the-romans/

Atwill's credentials are not good and when even fellow Jesus mythicists are saying his material is no good, odds are his work is no good.
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Re: Story of Jesus Christ was fabricated to pacify and enslave

#33  Postby proudfootz » Oct 22, 2013 2:46 am

willhud9 wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
willhud9 wrote:Those people are just as fucktarded as Atwill is. Atwill's hypothesis is not more an hypothesis anymore than Michael Behe's hypothesis of irreducible complexity is. It is a premise with no evidence to support it, but rudimentary, almost conspiracy theory-like, knowledge of the early church.


I haven't read the book - thanks for your detailed review of his works strong and weak points. :cheers:


I didn't have to read the book. I am basing it not only off of the information in the OP but also this piece right here:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2013/10/joseph-atwill-has-not-proven-that-jesus-was-made-up-by-the-romans/

Atwill's credentials are not good and when even fellow Jesus mythicists are saying his material is no good, odds are his work is no good.


Good to see you coming around to acknowledging when 'Jesus mythicists' think something is no good, odds are it is no good. ;)
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Re: Story of Jesus Christ was fabricated to pacify and enslave

#34  Postby Scar » Oct 22, 2013 5:46 am

Goldenmane wrote:
Byron wrote:
Calilasseia wrote:Well of course myths don't arise in a vacuum. As a consequence, I'm perfectly happy to operate on the basis that a real individual existed upon which the Jesus story was based, especially if there exists scholarly work pointing to appropriate evidence on this matter. Not that this would in any way validate the assorted weird and wonderful supernaturalist assertions about the individual in question, which require a separate body of proper evidence to support, and for which none has been forthcoming. As to how this myth arose, well, I think we'd need something a little more convincing than yet another story to place the details on a firm foundation.

Yup, my position.

I believe Jesus was a historical figure because every early source -- friend, foe, and indifferent -- refers to him as such, in a specific time and place, within living memory. The idea that he never existed doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone until the 18th century. I'm willing to accept that it could be right, but it's got a lot of work to do, and so far, it isn't doing it, instead resorting to junk scholarship and Dan Brown "revelations." A History Channel special is doubtless in the works.

Many of its supporters seem either unable to decouple Jesus of Nazareth from Christ, or else, think that doing so gives too much ground to Christianity. Well, maybe it does (I personally think that Jesus being a failed doomsday preacher is at least as damaging to orthodox Christianity as the Jesus Myth), but it doesn't matter; we follow the evidence where it leads.


As it happens, my position is pretty much the above as well.

I've never understood why some people feel it is so important to have the preachy fuck never have existed in the first place that they are willing to be religious about it.


I'm of the opinion that the man as described in the bible never existed. I think that's all that counts.
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Re: Story of Jesus Christ was fabricated to pacify and enslave

#35  Postby dejuror » Oct 25, 2013 11:21 pm

Byron wrote:
I believe Jesus was a historical figure because every early source -- friend, foe, and indifferent -- refers to him as such, in a specific time and place, within living memory...


Well, let us hear how his freinds describe his existence.

1. Ignatius---For our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost.

2. Aristides--The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh.

3. Justin Martyr---And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven

4. Tertullian---Now, that we may give a simpler answer, it was not fit that the Son of God should be born of a human father's seed...

5. Origen--Jesus Christ Himself, who came (into the world), was born of the Father before all creatures; that, after He had been the servant of the Father in the creation of all things........ it was born of a virgin and of the Holy Spirit.

6. Paul---The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

7. gMark---about the fourth watch of the night He came to them, walking on the sea ; and He intended to pass by them.

Jesus existed without a human father according to his freinds.

Byron wrote:The idea that he never existed doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone until the 18th century.


The idea that Gods, Devils, Angels and Spirits existed in the 1st century seem to still occur today.

In the NT, Jesus existed as God Creator.
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Re: Story of Jesus Christ was fabricated to pacify and enslave

#36  Postby dejuror » Oct 26, 2013 12:04 am

Moonwatcher wrote:I have pretty much come to the conclusion as well that the myth had some basis in a real person and that a lot of the counter is an inability to separate Jesus from Christ or a reaction that a historical person is somehow brownie points in favor of Christianity to paraphrase.

But I'm not sure there would be a shit storm if such a document was found. Fundamentalists ignore mountains of science and equally ignore blatant contradictions in their supposedly infallible, divinely inspired book. They would equally dismiss any discovery that came along.


Are you admitting that your conclusion is based on imaginary evidence? No document has ever been found to conclude there was a human Jesus of Nazareth as described. You seem not to understand that Fundamentalists argue that Jesus existed and that they agree with historicists who use the Bible as a source of history.

The story of Jesus the Son of God is a compilation of Jewish, Greek and Roman Mythology invented after the Fall of the Temple c 70 CE and was not accepted by Jews at all for hundreds of years.

The Jesus story did not pacify the Jews because c 133 CE, they believed that Simon Barchocheba was the Messiah.
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Re: Story of Jesus Christ was fabricated to pacify and enslave

#37  Postby quas » Dec 27, 2013 3:58 pm

Calilasseia wrote:I'm also minded to note at this juncture, that if any archaeologists did alight upon documents confirming that the Romans manipulated the local religion in this manner, and those documents passed the relevant tests, the sensation would be enormous.William Lane Craig for one would have a purple fit, and the resulting display of apoplexy would be hilarious to behold.


You are giving William Lane Craig too much credit. To suggest he might be angry at such evidence is to suggest that he possesses a modicum of intellectual honesty, which he does not.

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/nonth ... 28952.html
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Re: Story of Jesus Christ was fabricated to pacify and enslave

#38  Postby Byron » Dec 27, 2013 7:43 pm

quas wrote:
Calilasseia wrote:I'm also minded to note at this juncture, that if any archaeologists did alight upon documents confirming that the Romans manipulated the local religion in this manner, and those documents passed the relevant tests, the sensation would be enormous.William Lane Craig for one would have a purple fit, and the resulting display of apoplexy would be hilarious to behold.


You are giving William Lane Craig too much credit. To suggest he might be angry at such evidence is to suggest that he possesses a modicum of intellectual honesty, which he does not.

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/nonth ... 28952.html

When they debated, Bart Ehrman, being an ex-fundie, knew how to needle Craig into showing his true colors. After Ehrman grilled him about biblical authority and evidence, Craig snapped, and started preaching about revelations from the Holy Spirit.

It's that simple for WLC. God spoke to him, therefore Christianity is true. Any evidence pales in the face of revelation.
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Re: Story of Jesus Christ was fabricated to pacify and enslave

#39  Postby quas » Dec 28, 2013 8:08 am

I don't think Craig would "snap", he would simply dismiss all evidence nonchalantly. It's a pathological thing. At least that's how I imagine it, you have the video of that debate?
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Re: Story of Jesus Christ was fabricated to pacify and enslave

#40  Postby Mick » Dec 28, 2013 8:18 am

If Jesus is meant to be the hero in these "made up" stories by the Romans, and if the Romans intended to push for submission, I have a hard time figuring out why they'd make Jesus' teaching contrary to the opinion of Jewish leaders and ultimately put to death for what looked like a political challenge. That's not submission. Matters worsen once we see the certain Gospels involve him defeating death with the resurrection.
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