Talking to Christians about AGW

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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#261  Postby Cito di Pense » May 25, 2019 12:33 pm

tuco wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
tuco wrote:Perhaps, instead of post count and other means of propagating self-image, we should adopt an ecological footprint as indentifier. That should make "who is who" more transparent or?


Search me, tuco. If you get off on a social environment where one can accumulate reputation points, perhaps you should hang out more at those sorts of joints, and hang out here a little less.


I do not get off on it but it's inevitable to accumulate reputation points in any social environment because its how human work. But right you are, perhaps I should hang out less around here where my reputation points are in negative values ;)

So do I understand it correctly you are not in favor of having one's ecological footprint public? Are you afraid of a bad reputation?


If you have an attainable and testable metric for it, the whole world will be watching. The track record of such social engineering projects is not good. Plus, I've seen your efforts in the area of figuring out why mathematics works, and so I'm not expecting much.

As usual, we are waiting for major industrial-level projects aimed at repairing the damage caused by fossil fuel consumption. I reiterate: Damage control is less important right now than damage repair. I keep tellin' ya, less people would be a step in the right direction, but you don't cotton to that, much, do ya? I may get my wish despite the best efforts of the more-the-merrier business community.
Last edited by Cito di Pense on May 25, 2019 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#262  Postby tuco » May 25, 2019 12:39 pm

efforts lol I take it as no and yes
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#263  Postby Cito di Pense » May 25, 2019 12:40 pm

tuco wrote:efforts lol I take it as no and yes


As usual for you, tuco, you join a conversation and then immediately drop your end of it with a cheerful "does not compute lol".
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#264  Postby tuco » May 25, 2019 12:53 pm

What conversation ffs? You perhaps consider your efforts .. to be part of a conversation but I consider it obscure babbling. A conversation does not happen on your terms, nor on mine, and we are obviously not willing to accommodate each other terms. In such a situation, its waste of time and energy to continue. Unless you get off on your own obscure babbling. Then it's not a waste for you. It is still a waste for me.

Besides, I made a proposition. That you consider it "joining a conversation" only puts you in the same bag with those believe they are entitled to my time and energy because we are on .. discussion board .. lol sure.
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#265  Postby Keep It Real » May 25, 2019 1:03 pm

Padington Bear is for children.
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#266  Postby surreptitious57 » May 25, 2019 1:37 pm

The single biggest thing any one can do to reduce their global footprint is not to have any children
Citos is significantly less as a result of him being child free so why would he be afraid of a bad rep

Although that is just pure coincidence as I cannot imagine him losing sleep worrying about how big his footprint is
He just so happens to have a low one [ all other things being equal ] but it is still a good thing if unintentionally so

There could be some mathematical points index to measure ones footprint I suppose
The lower the negative number the lower the print and vice versa so for example :

Vegan [- 90 points ]
No car [- 70 points ]
Vegetarian [- 80 points ]
No children [- I00 points ]
Grows own food [- 50 points ]
Walks everywhere [- 80 points ]
Cycles everywhere [- 80 points ]
No foreign holidays [- 20 points ]

This is an entirely arbitrary list purely for the sake of reference although it includes the main ways to reduce yours
If the default setting is 0 then on the basis of the above citeria my footprint would be - 270 points which is not bad
However that is just pure coincidence as nothing I do is with the explicit intention of reducing my footprint as such

So what about you - how small - or indeed how big - is yours according to this list here
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#267  Postby felltoearth » May 25, 2019 1:49 pm

You missed the biggest one. Topping yourself.
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#268  Postby surreptitious57 » May 25, 2019 1:58 pm

I dont think many people would really consider suicide an option
They usually kill themselves for entirely personal reasons anyway
But still thank you for your Cito esque contribution to the debate
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#269  Postby Svartalf » May 25, 2019 2:47 pm

Well, topping oneself may reduce your carbon print (unless you have yourself cremated thereafter), but it's not a really valid solution as it only leaves more room for others to increase their own print.
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#270  Postby Hermit » May 25, 2019 2:49 pm

felltoearth wrote:You missed the biggest one. Topping yourself.

Why stop there? Killing any one other than yourself has the same effect. Ergo, the more people you top, the greater your contribution to global sustainability. List of environmental sustainability heroes.
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#271  Postby felltoearth » May 25, 2019 2:51 pm

Hermit wrote:
felltoearth wrote:You missed the biggest one. Topping yourself.

Why stop there? Killing any one other than yourself has the same effect. Ergo, the more people you top, the greater your contribution to global sustainability. List of environmental sustainability heroes.

-10000
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#272  Postby tuco » May 25, 2019 3:02 pm

What are you talking about? :) Of course, there is a methodology to estimate one's ecological footprint. It's just not good enough to satisfy Cito's attainable and testable metric I would guess. For me such estimation is good enough because it does not really matter to me if 2.8 planets needed, to sustain my lifestyle if everyone lived like me, or 2.37 planets. What matters is whether is 2 planets of 8 however.

Let's remind ourselves where it started:

Cito di Pense wrote:Hey, I'm doing something. I'm posting on the internet and telling anecdotes about what I do in my spare time. Ain't I speshul? No, I'm not. I eat frozen pizza for dinner some evenings and toss the box in the rubbish that goes to the incinerator. If I carefully watched my use of consumables that contribute to AGW, I'd not have time for all this internet posting.

Me, I didn't have kids. It's the best fucking thing I could think of to claim my dedication to preserving the environment, enough so to say, "my work here is done". Plus, I'm old. That's several decades now of the kids I didn't have, and what an impact I've made.


OK let's stop doing this and let's estimate our ecological footprint.

Yes, you did not have kids, kids which could invent I dunno a thorium reactor. Or maybe not, maybe they would not invent anything at all, they would not contribute to sustainability at all, but would devastate the planet. Who knows? The fact that reducing our own footprint, reducing consumption, together with technological progress is our best, and realistic, shot at preserving biodiversity on this rock. But your work is done here .. well, let's not have this conversation then.
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#273  Postby Cito di Pense » May 25, 2019 3:38 pm

tuco wrote:Of course, there is a methodology to estimate one's ecological footprint.


That's not at all the way you started this tack. Above, you advocate self-reported data, and you know what kind of bullshit that entails. Anyone who wants to reduce has plenty of resources to help with that, but this is not what you initially asked. Making one's ecological footprint public in a socially-meaningful way discourages abuse only if you assume people are socially advanced and don't hide their misdeeds whenever they can.

Let me refresh your memory as to how you began your latest soggy waffle:

tuco wrote:So do I understand it correctly you are not in favor of having one's ecological footprint public? Are you afraid of a bad reputation?


Don't you see the difference? Having a public footprint differs in a wibbly way from disclosing one's footprint. You ended up suggesting voluntary reporting. Nothing you have written strives toward any meaningful social metric for ecological footprint. My self-reported ecological footprint is, to put it bluntly to you, tuco, bullshit. Like a lot of your ideas, they hearken back to hi-score tables for an old video game which only shows data for those who like to play.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#274  Postby felltoearth » May 25, 2019 3:53 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:Nothing you have written strives toward any meaningful social metric for ecological footprint. My self-reported ecological footprint is, to put it bluntly to you, tuco, bullshit. Like a lot of your ideas, they hearken back to hi-score tables for an old video game which only shows data for those who like to play.


This. Surr's list is even worse. The label "vegan" is meaningless as a carbon footprint metric. It's qualitative values dressed up as accounting.
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#275  Postby tuco » May 25, 2019 3:55 pm

@Cito di Pense

Yes and no. I do admit to being obscure too :) Of course, I did not mean this:

tuco wrote:Perhaps, instead of post count and other means of propagating self-image, we should adopt an ecological footprint as indentifier. That should make "who is who" more transparent or?


seriously. The way I understood your post was that you were criticizing virtue signaling for not necessarily reflecting reality, hence my not so serious proposition to make an obscure point.

Fair enough. Self-reported anecdotes are not the most reliable source of data, I agree. I do not agree its necessarily bullshit. Its more or less honest and accurate esitimate. To me still better than virtue signaling though. For the purpose of gaining a reputation anyway. Then again, maybe I am just naive and it would not affect reputation, in the context of group dynamics, as much as loving GoT for example ;)
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#276  Postby Cito di Pense » May 25, 2019 4:11 pm

tuco wrote:The way I understood your post was that you were criticizing virtue signaling for not necessarily reflecting reality, hence my not so serious proposition to make an obscure point.


Virtue-signalling over individual initiative is not necessarily omitting or distorting facts. It's just virtue signalling, and the way I had it was to let virtue be its own reward. Is virtue-signalling even a reliable way to inspire people who are not emotionally labile? If they're labile, how long does the inspiration last? That's what's fucked about virtue signalling, and not that anyone's trying to look like a goody-two-shoes.

My comment was not kindly, if that's what you mean. I only hoped to satisfy my audience that I've done as much as I can stand for people who are worried about their own kids' futures. Preserving biodiversity would be a plus; still, who's minding the store but us? Not another word about being good stewards of the land, m'kay?

tuco wrote:I do not agree its necessarily bullshit.


I don't think I said anecdotes are necessarily bullshit, but this is neither here nor there.
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#277  Postby tuco » May 25, 2019 4:26 pm

Honestly, I dunno how this shit works. I suspect most people want to be good people and are willing to delude themselves in the process. However, I do believe peer pressure works and, I guess, most people are emotionally liable. The goal of those who signal is to gain some advantage. Be it with regards to own delusions or peer recognition. If this works for most people, I think the emotionally not liable are of no real concern. They will end up on the fringe.
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#278  Postby felltoearth » May 25, 2019 4:29 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:Preserving biodiversity would be a plus; still, who's minding the store but us? Not another word about being good stewards of the land, m'kay?

The store owner presumably. We’re just management. I think we might be fired soon.
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#279  Postby Cito di Pense » May 25, 2019 4:31 pm

tuco wrote:Honestly, I dunno how this shit works. I suspect most people want to be good people and are willing to delude themselves in the process. However, I do believe peer pressure works and, I guess, most people are emotionally liable. The goal of those who signal is to gain some advantage. Be it with regards to own delusions or peer recognition. If this works for most people, I think the emotionally not liable are of no real concern. They will end up on the fringe.


These work as bona fides:

"I believe most people want to be good people"

"I believe peer pressure works"

"Most people are emotionally labile"

Now that you've told me what you believe, what then? Does it mean that anecdotes are not (precisely) anecdotes? Virtue signalling is not subject to criticism because it only (or even ever) consists of anecdotes. It's only reliable if you believe in certain stuff. After really getting going, reformers start to look a little like social scientists on methamphetamines.
Last edited by Cito di Pense on May 25, 2019 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Talking to Christians about AGW

#280  Postby surreptitious57 » May 25, 2019 4:33 pm

At one end of the spectrum virtue signalling is nothing more than pure narcissism
At the other end of it it is an attempt at genuinely trying to raising consciousness

Sometimes it can be hard to tell the difference especially when celebrity is involved
So maybe someone should start vice signalling for those feeling a bit left out by it all
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