The Morality of the Christian God

Exploring morality in scripture and Christian history

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: The Morality of the Christian God

#281  Postby monkeyboy » Aug 30, 2013 5:05 pm

Back to free will and the morlity of God if I may.

I have another problem with the original sin/Adam and Eve story, whether it is meant to be literal or allegorical I don't care. I certainly don't see it as morally acceptible.

If I had won the lottery and decided to indulge my children, I could in my new mansion, create a fantastic play area for them. If I fitted it out with the best in toys and aventure playground, climbing frames, ball pools etc, you could call it heaven for kids. Now if, in one corner of the room, mounted on a pedestal, I placed a hand grenade with a clear sign saying "Do not, under ANY circumstances touch this, play with it and ABSOLUTELY DO NOT PULL THE PIN OUT, YOU WILL DIE!", how long will it take before we hear a bang and find bits of kids spread around the room?
When I appear in court charged with murder, I don't think for a moment that the defence, "Well I put a clear sign up warning of the dangers" is going to stand up to scrutiny for a second. People will accuse me of being a twisted, sick fuck and with good reason. There would be no sane reason whatsoever for putting such an item in a play room.

So why would God put the trees of knowledge and eternal life into the Garden of Eden if they weren't to be touched? Also, why would he create a talking serpent or allow anyone else to do so when he knew what the outcome of his two naive creations meeting such a talking serpent would be? Also, how did the talking serpent know about the trees and their powers? The serpent must have been allowed to eat from the trees without punishment, only when it shared some of that knowledge did it get "punished".

PLease explain where the morality is within this tale because I can't find it.
The Bible is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies.
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Re: The Morality of the Christian God

#282  Postby pelfdaddy » Aug 30, 2013 5:59 pm

soft violin intro...

...How would you know if your children love you, or have a meaningful relationship with your children, or assume that they obey you of their own free will, UNLESS you equip the playroom with the option of blowing themselves to smithereens?

...triumphant french horn crescendo with timpani drum roll and crashing symbols!!!
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Re: The Morality of the Christian God

#283  Postby monkeyboy » Aug 30, 2013 6:53 pm

pelfdaddy wrote:soft violin intro...

...How would you know if your children love you, or have a meaningful relationship with your children, or assume that they obey you of their own free will, UNLESS you equip the playroom with the option of blowing themselves to smithereens?

...triumphant french horn crescendo with timpani drum roll and crashing symbols!!!


Indeed though in the original story, why not just place a tree there with some foul tasting berries or use stinging nettles for this lesson in blind obediance? That way God could have delivered a simple message to his creations of "there, there, told you so" if they screwed up and possibly achieved the obediance he so craved without all the melodrama. It's worked with me with my kids over countless things that they've found me to be worldly wise about.
The Bible is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies.
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Re: The Morality of the Christian God

#284  Postby THWOTH » Aug 30, 2013 6:58 pm

What I find objectionable about the Eden myth is that God required his creations to remain ignorant and punished them for expanding their horizons.
"No-one is exempt from speaking nonsense – the only misfortune is to do it solemnly."
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Re: The Morality of the Christian God

#285  Postby Arnold Layne » Aug 30, 2013 7:11 pm

Moses de la Montagne wrote:
Michael66 wrote:On #3 I agree it doesn't contain anything that is not in the Gospels. It is the interpretation that I don't share with you. Is it enough to agree some of the content of the Gospels without agreeing on the interpretation?


Yes. The question rests on the fact that there are different interpretations of the gospels. In the course of this thread, Michael, I've learned much about your own interpretation of the bible. But without wanting to be rude, I was wondering if you could answer the question without appealing to your own interpretation of the scriptures. Because the question requires you to simply address the morality of God.

And that's the problem, isn't it, Moses? This really isn't a thread about the morality of The Christian God. It's about the morality of Michael's God, which is pretty obvious now we have seen his responses. You will always be talking at cross -purposes because of this fundamental problem. He even says in one of his more recent posts that he may be the only person to think as he does, so not only is it Michael's God we are talking about, but he thinks himself unique. Very humble!
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Re: The Morality of the Christian God

#286  Postby Cito di Pense » Aug 30, 2013 7:23 pm

Arnold Layne wrote:He even says in one of his more recent posts that he may be the only person to think as he does...


Michael is a unique and special person, just like everyone else.

The ancient practise of writing long dissertations on the refinement of one's own theology in service of announcing one's overall refinement and nicety has produced giga-reams of just the sort of banality that Michael has paraphrased. It's guaranteed that after crowds of people have muttered similar (but somehow personalised) banalities before him, no one is going to accuse him of plagiarism. He's between the rock of making shit up whole cloth and the hard place of reciting somebody else's scripture.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: The Morality of the Christian God

#287  Postby Arnold Layne » Aug 30, 2013 7:50 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Arnold Layne wrote:He even says in one of his more recent posts that he may be the only person to think as he does...


Michael is a unique and special person, just like everyone else.

The ancient practise of writing long dissertations on the refinement of one's own theology in service of announcing one's overall refinement and nicety has produced giga-reams of just the sort of banality that Michael has paraphrased. It's guaranteed that after crowds of people have muttered similar (but somehow personalised) banalities before him, no one is going to accuse him of plagiarism. He's between the rock of making shit up whole cloth and the hard place of reciting somebody else's scripture.

I suppose. Are you going to be the one that tells him? :coffee:
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Re: The Morality of the Christian God

#288  Postby Cito di Pense » Aug 30, 2013 7:57 pm

Arnold Layne wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Arnold Layne wrote:He even says in one of his more recent posts that he may be the only person to think as he does...


Michael is a unique and special person, just like everyone else.

The ancient practise of writing long dissertations on the refinement of one's own theology in service of announcing one's overall refinement and nicety has produced giga-reams of just the sort of banality that Michael has paraphrased. It's guaranteed that after crowds of people have muttered similar (but somehow personalised) banalities before him, no one is going to accuse him of plagiarism. He's between the rock of making shit up whole cloth and the hard place of reciting somebody else's scripture.

I suppose. Are you going to be the one that tells him? :coffee:


Michael is here to enjoy the throaty resonances of his own sermons. Pay no attention to that 'iron sharpens iron' crap, which he uses to say there is no absolute perspective from which to critique his theology.

Michael66 wrote:A fundamental belief of Christians is that life continues after this life.

... To be honest I can’t say I fully understand the ‘why?’ (though the thoughts outlined above have helped me somewhat). But I do trust that God is good.


There are some things that are non-negotiable, because otherwise, the whole she-bang collapses. Without a belief in an afterlife,there is simply no point in going through all the wasted motions that xians undertake.
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Aug 30, 2013 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: The Morality of the Christian God

#289  Postby monkeyboy » Aug 30, 2013 8:04 pm

Arnold Layne wrote:
Moses de la Montagne wrote:
Michael66 wrote:On #3 I agree it doesn't contain anything that is not in the Gospels. It is the interpretation that I don't share with you. Is it enough to agree some of the content of the Gospels without agreeing on the interpretation?


Yes. The question rests on the fact that there are different interpretations of the gospels. In the course of this thread, Michael, I've learned much about your own interpretation of the bible. But without wanting to be rude, I was wondering if you could answer the question without appealing to your own interpretation of the scriptures. Because the question requires you to simply address the morality of God.

And that's the problem, isn't it, Moses? This really isn't a thread about the morality of The Christian God. It's about the morality of Michael's God, which is pretty obvious now we have seen his responses. You will always be talking at cross -purposes because of this fundamental problem. He even says in one of his more recent posts that he may be the only person to think as he does, so not only is it Michael's God we are talking about, but he thinks himself unique. Very humble!


What I always see when we boil it down in these cases is someone who has a fairly standard moral compass, pointing in pretty much the same direction as most reasonable people's who for some reason has to square that with belief in a god. In this case Michael isn't a total religious drone and thinks for himself which means he can see where the square peg of his morals don't match the round hole of his chosen god's. He doesn't like the fact that they don't marry up and is desperately performing the mental gymnastics required to get them to meet in some way and has chosen to come here to explore the issue. He reminds me of many ex theists I know, trying to justify a requirement in faith in god to support morals he holds and rapidly discovering that they actually stand apart from the christian God's when the two are compared. Ergo, God is redundant. Give him time and he'll be fine with god free navel gazing to examine his conscience.
The Bible is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies.
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Re: The Morality of the Christian God

#290  Postby Moses de la Montagne » Aug 30, 2013 8:47 pm

Arnold Layne wrote:
Moses de la Montagne wrote:
Michael66 wrote:On #3 I agree it doesn't contain anything that is not in the Gospels. It is the interpretation that I don't share with you. Is it enough to agree some of the content of the Gospels without agreeing on the interpretation?


Yes. The question rests on the fact that there are different interpretations of the gospels. In the course of this thread, Michael, I've learned much about your own interpretation of the bible. But without wanting to be rude, I was wondering if you could answer the question without appealing to your own interpretation of the scriptures. Because the question requires you to simply address the morality of God.

And that's the problem, isn't it, Moses? This really isn't a thread about the morality of The Christian God. It's about the morality of Michael's God, which is pretty obvious now we have seen his responses. You will always be talking at cross -purposes because of this fundamental problem. He even says in one of his more recent posts that he may be the only person to think as he does, so not only is it Michael's God we are talking about, but he thinks himself unique. Very humble!


Michael has no problem saying things like "I can only defend my own view" or "I admit that most Christians may not see it this way." He generously concedes that his Christianity (the good and peaceful kind) is a minority view. I just, for some reason, can't get him to comment on the morality of a God who lets the crude and militant view be the prevailing one for ≈2000 years. Even granting the extreme possibility, that Michael's seemingly benevolent god not only exists but is actually the Christian god, his sloth, indifference, and ambiguous scriptures are morally abhorrent. A shitty performance over two millennia. That said, Italy seems like a nice holiday destination. Ciao, Micheletto!
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Re: The Morality of the Christian God

#291  Postby Cito di Pense » Aug 30, 2013 8:54 pm

Moses de la Montagne wrote: I just, for some reason, can't get him to comment on the morality of a God who lets the crude and militant view be the prevailing one for ≈2000 years.


That's only a little bit removed from the problem of dealing with xians in the here and now who don't have Michael's view. Mike is right with his God, and that's all that counts, because the evildoers will be dealt with in the afterlife.

AND: If Michael does not believe that there is judgement, why would he let a silly thing like the FUA get in the way of his trying to save a few souls among the atheists? For all we know, he's convinced himself that is exactly what his pages and pages of drivel are aimed at.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: The Morality of the Christian God

#292  Postby pelfdaddy » Aug 30, 2013 11:03 pm

When I contemplate God's Word, The Holy Bible, I can only marvel at the steadfastness, the immutability, the deep and solid anchorage provided by its gushing wellspring of eternal objective Truth; and the roaring forest fire of subjectivity that rages throughout its pages as believers by the billions understand its many statements to mean anything, everything, and nothing simultaneously...

...presents no difficulties.

No difficulties at all.
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Re: The Morality of the Christian God

#293  Postby romansh » Aug 31, 2013 12:39 am

monkeyboy wrote:Back to free will and the morlity of God if I may.

I have another problem with the original sin/Adam and Eve story, whether it is meant to be literal or allegorical I don't care. I certainly don't see it as morally acceptible.

Funnily enough if we read about why Adam and Eve got thrown out the GoE, is because of two things
    1) They disobeyed god in tasting the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge
    2) And they learned to think in terms of good and evil.

Just perhaps the original intent of the passage was for people not to think in these terms ... and to get back into the GoE (metaphorically speaking) we should stop thinking in terms of good and evil. This interpretation has a deep irony if we compare this to how people interpret original sin today.
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Re: The Morality of the Christian God

#294  Postby archibald » Aug 31, 2013 12:43 am

romansh wrote:
Just perhaps the original intent of the passage was for people not to think in these terms ... and to get back into the GoE (metaphorically speaking) we should stop thinking in terms of good and evil.


Then we'd be just like all other living things.
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Re: The Morality of the Christian God

#295  Postby romansh » Aug 31, 2013 12:51 am

archibald wrote:
romansh wrote:
Just perhaps the original intent of the passage was for people not to think in these terms ... and to get back into the GoE (metaphorically speaking) we should stop thinking in terms of good and evil.


Then we'd be just like all other living things.

And you think we are not?
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Re: The Morality of the Christian God

#296  Postby archibald » Aug 31, 2013 12:55 am

romansh wrote:

And you think we are not?


I wasn't adding any thoughts or values. It just struck me that that is the implication of the interesting thing you said.

But, yes, I do think we are just like all other living things. I think the idea of good and evil is our idea, that is to say there is actually no such thing as either. I suppose that's stating the obvious.
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Re: The Morality of the Christian God

#297  Postby archibald » Aug 31, 2013 12:57 am

I guess I was wondering how things would pan out if we did, stop thinking in terms of good and evil.

The rest of nature seems to do alright.
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Re: The Morality of the Christian God

#298  Postby romansh » Aug 31, 2013 1:01 am

archibald wrote:
I wasn't adding any thoughts or values. It just struck me that that is the implication of the interesting thing you said.

But, yes, I do think we are just like all other living things. I think the idea of good and evil is our idea, that is to say there is actually no such thing as either. I suppose that's stating the obvious.

And juxtapose your last thought with how Christians think of original sin today.

How will we do? Personally I have tried to live an amoral life as possible over the last few years.
Being honest with myself (as much as this is possible) and think in terms of what I actually want.
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Re: The Morality of the Christian God

#299  Postby archibald » Aug 31, 2013 1:15 am

romansh wrote:

How will we do? Personally I have tried to live an amoral life as possible over the last few years.
Being honest with myself (as much as this is possible) and think in terms of what I actually want.


Did you ever consider doing that 'Dice game' thing (as per the book), where you write down, say, 6 things that you intuitively want to do, roll a dice and then just do the appropriate one, regardless of the consequences? This seems at least a bit like 'not assessing good or bad', to an extent, since the final decision is taken by the dice. Then you do another list.....
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Re: The Morality of the Christian God

#300  Postby archibald » Aug 31, 2013 1:17 am

not sure what you meant about juxtaposing.....
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