The Myth of the Pagan Persecution of Christians

Was this just another false flag operation?

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: The Myth of the Pagan Persecution of Christians

#261  Postby Leucius Charinus » Aug 28, 2017 7:11 am

MS2 wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
MS2 wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:

Moss basically rejects (5 out of 9) most of the purported persecutions as can be perceived in the following list in which the asterisk * denotes the persecutions that she believes may have been "historical"....

As I said, Moss is not an authority that in any way supports your views. It is disingenuous to suggest that she does.


I don't.

Yes you do. In your OP (http://www.rationalskepticism.org/chris ... l#p2243795) you state without any ambiguity that her thesis leads to your conclusion. You give a summary of her views and then say
    Hence the aptness of the term "false flag" [literary] operation undertaken by the political entity of the church organisation sometime after it emerged victorious in its conflict with the heretics after Nicaea.


You are reading too much into things. Moss rejects 5/9 of the persecutions. I agree with her and focus on the 4 she thinks are historical. That is all. The 5 persecutions that Moss rejects I refer to as "literary false flags" - events which did not take place.

I have never claimed Moss supports my claim under investigation - namely that none of these 9 persecutions may have been historical events. I just used Moss to demonstrate a starting point of departure. That should have been clear.

You think that Christianity did not exist until it was invented by Constantine and his cronies and consequently the persecutions must be pure inventions involving people who did not exist.


I think that the latest possible date [terminus ad quem] for the appearance of the Christian "Good News" was the 4th century, and that the stories of the persecutions were developed later.


You'd better clarify. Is it now your view that 'the Christian "Good News"' might have appeared before the 4th century and might not have been the invention of Constantine?


As an amateur historian who understands that most of not all of ancient history is "hypothetical" and involves likelihoods rather than certitudes my view is that the origins of Christianity fall somewhere between the earliest possible date and the latest possible date for the authorship of the Greek New Testament.

Because everyone seems to be investigating the earliest possible date I thought someone should investigate the latest possible date. That's all. Between the two must rest the historical truth.
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: The Myth of the Pagan Persecution of Christians

#262  Postby Leucius Charinus » Aug 28, 2017 7:24 am

MS2 wrote:Archaeology in Salona
The archaeology is explained in information boards erected on the site. Here are my photos of them which hopefully are clear enough for the archaeologists' explanations to be readable.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/158375595@N05/shares/5YdJ44

Hope that has worked!


I found a pfd discussing some of the archaeology

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=au

    Found in the superstructure of the auditorium were two shrines of Nemesis, the goddess of fate and retribution who was worshipped by the gladiators. The Christians later turned these shrines into memorial chapels in memory of the Christian martyrs killed in the arena.

One will find that the rest of the information about the existence of Christians - both Bishops or martyrs - is sourced from the Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius.

The article states:

    The town centre was moved from the Forum into its eastern part, near the place where the tradition of cults existed ever since the period of persecution of the Christians. Located in a nearby residential house was the oldest secret church (domus ecclesiae) called Oratory A, where the Salonitan Christians secretly met in the second half of the 3rd and the early 4th centuries.

What I am looking for in Salona is some unambiguous archaeological evidence before the 4th century, and I don't seem to be able to find any. I will keep looking for a while.

In a further section of that article is states:

    Bishop Domnio (locally; St Duje, later the patron saint of Split), who died a martyr's death in the arena of the Salonitan amphitheatre, was in 304 A.D. buried at Manastirne, and over his grave a memorial chapel was built. Soon to be erected around it were similar chapels which served as Christian burial places. In the 5th century, Bishop Gaianus had a large three-aisled basilica constructed over the cemetery complex, with Bishop Domnio`s grave in the presbytery. Next to it are the graves of other Salonitan bishops, Bishop Domnio`s successors, who were buried there in the course of the 4th and 5th centuries.

For example do we have a archaeological gravestone inscribed with a date etc for Bishop Domnio or do we just have Eusebius?


Meanwhile if anyone finds something concrete ....
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: The Myth of the Pagan Persecution of Christians

#263  Postby Tracer Tong » Aug 28, 2017 11:25 am

Leucius Charinus wrote:
As an amateur historian...


When you describe yourself like this, in what way are you distinguishing yourself from the man in the street, as it were?
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Re: The Myth of the Pagan Persecution of Christians

#264  Postby MS2 » Aug 28, 2017 1:47 pm

Leucius Charinus wrote:
MS2 wrote:Archaeology in Salona
The archaeology is explained in information boards erected on the site. Here are my photos of them which hopefully are clear enough for the archaeologists' explanations to be readable.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/158375595@N05/shares/5YdJ44

Hope that has worked!


I found a pfd discussing some of the archaeology

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=au

    Found in the superstructure of the auditorium were two shrines of Nemesis, the goddess of fate and retribution who was worshipped by the gladiators. The Christians later turned these shrines into memorial chapels in memory of the Christian martyrs killed in the arena.

One will find that the rest of the information about the existence of Christians - both Bishops or martyrs - is sourced from the Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius.

Is this your presumption? Nothing in the pdf says that.

The article states:

    The town centre was moved from the Forum into its eastern part, near the place where the tradition of cults existed ever since the period of persecution of the Christians. Located in a nearby residential house was the oldest secret church (domus ecclesiae) called Oratory A, where the Salonitan Christians secretly met in the second half of the 3rd and the early 4th centuries.

What I am looking for in Salona is some unambiguous archaeological evidence before the 4th century, and I don't seem to be able to find any. I will keep looking for a while.

There is nothing unambiguous about 'Located in a nearby residential house was the oldest secret church (domus ecclesiae) called Oratory A, where the Salonitan Christians secretly met in the second half of the 3rd and the early 4th centuries'.

In a further section of that article is states:

    Bishop Domnio (locally; St Duje, later the patron saint of Split), who died a martyr's death in the arena of the Salonitan amphitheatre, was in 304 A.D. buried at Manastirne, and over his grave a memorial chapel was built. Soon to be erected around it were similar chapels which served as Christian burial places. In the 5th century, Bishop Gaianus had a large three-aisled basilica constructed over the cemetery complex, with Bishop Domnio`s grave in the presbytery. Next to it are the graves of other Salonitan bishops, Bishop Domnio`s successors, who were buried there in the course of the 4th and 5th centuries.

For example do we have a archaeological gravestone inscribed with a date etc for Bishop Domnio or do we just have Eusebius?

The statements made by the archaeologists are definitive. They say it is Domnio's grave, not eg 'a grave believed to be that of the Domnio mentioned by Eusebius'. It is also clear many inscriptions etc have been found there. (I saw a fair few myself, but can't read Latin). If you read the Kapljuc board photo, it mentions 5 named martyrs from the Diocletian persecution who were executed in the ampitheatre.

I'm curious tho. Say there were no mention of Domnio. Do you at least accept there are 4th century Christian graves and buildings there?
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Re: The Myth of the Pagan Persecution of Christians

#265  Postby Leucius Charinus » Aug 29, 2017 12:20 am

Tracer Tong wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
As an amateur historian...


When you describe yourself like this, in what way are you distinguishing yourself from the man in the street, as it were?


I have spent the time examining and investigating the actual historical sources (literary, epigraphic, numismatic, etc) and in becoming familiar with the historical method used by classical historians as distinct from that used by biblical historians,

That's about all.
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: The Myth of the Pagan Persecution of Christians

#266  Postby Leucius Charinus » Aug 29, 2017 12:42 am

MS2 wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
MS2 wrote:Archaeology in Salona
The archaeology is explained in information boards erected on the site. Here are my photos of them which hopefully are clear enough for the archaeologists' explanations to be readable.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/158375595@N05/shares/5YdJ44

Hope that has worked!


I found a pfd discussing some of the archaeology

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=au

    Found in the superstructure of the auditorium were two shrines of Nemesis, the goddess of fate and retribution who was worshipped by the gladiators. The Christians later turned these shrines into memorial chapels in memory of the Christian martyrs killed in the arena.

One will find that the rest of the information about the existence of Christians - both Bishops or martyrs - is sourced from the Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius.



Is this your presumption? Nothing in the pdf says that.



Yes. It is what I would surmise from my historical investigations.

FWIW Eusebius is responsible for authoring in the 4th century what might be described as the earliest history for the nation of Christians.

The article states:

    The town centre was moved from the Forum into its eastern part, near the place where the tradition of cults existed ever since the period of persecution of the Christians. Located in a nearby residential house was the oldest secret church (domus ecclesiae) called Oratory A, where the Salonitan Christians secretly met in the second half of the 3rd and the early 4th centuries.

What I am looking for in Salona is some unambiguous archaeological evidence before the 4th century, and I don't seem to be able to find any. I will keep looking for a while.


There is nothing unambiguous about 'Located in a nearby residential house was the oldest secret church (domus ecclesiae) called Oratory A, where the Salonitan Christians secretly met in the second half of the 3rd and the early 4th centuries'.


On the surface there appears to be nothing ambiguous about that statement. The ambiguities start appearing when one tries to dig beneath that statement into the ancient historical evidence upon which one expects it to depend.

I haven't looked at this archaeology before, so its new to me too.

We are looking for the actual evidence of this "residential house" that is claimed to be " the oldest secret church (domus ecclesiae) in the town", and called Oratory A. What can google find?

In a further section of that article is states:

    Bishop Domnio (locally; St Duje, later the patron saint of Split), who died a martyr's death in the arena of the Salonitan amphitheatre, was in 304 A.D. buried at Manastirne, and over his grave a memorial chapel was built. Soon to be erected around it were similar chapels which served as Christian burial places. In the 5th century, Bishop Gaianus had a large three-aisled basilica constructed over the cemetery complex, with Bishop Domnio`s grave in the presbytery. Next to it are the graves of other Salonitan bishops, Bishop Domnio`s successors, who were buried there in the course of the 4th and 5th centuries.

For example do we have a archaeological gravestone inscribed with a date etc for Bishop Domnio or do we just have Eusebius?


The statements made by the archaeologists are definitive. They say it is Domnio's grave, not eg 'a grave believed to be that of the Domnio mentioned by Eusebius'. It is also clear many inscriptions etc have been found there. (I saw a fair few myself, but can't read Latin). If you read the Kapljuc board photo, it mentions 5 named martyrs from the Diocletian persecution who were executed in the ampitheatre.


OK. I will have a look at these. But be aware that Eusebius is generally our earliest historical source for the so-called Christian martyrs. And for the Bishops. And for the Apologists. And for the Heretics.

I'm curious tho. Say there were no mention of Domnio. Do you at least accept there are 4th century Christian graves and buildings there?


Yes for sure. I believe that the evidence is such that the latest possible date (terminus ad quem) for the appearance of the Christians is the 4th century during the great Christian revolution which commenced c.312-325 CE and continued through to the Theodosian Decrees of c.381 CE (based upon Nicene Orthodoxy). The ancient historical evidence for this time period becomes abundant and unambiguous.

Prior to the 4th century the ancient historical evidence is very scarce and often ambiguous. The guiding light for the entire field of investigations into the 'earliest possible date" for the appearance of the "Universal Christian Church" is this Eusebius dude, who provides us with lists of bishops in the major cities, and other important historical data.

An exercise in looking at the chronology of the so-called Christian Archaeology in Salona might prove interesting in highlighting how much of an authority the history of Eusebius has become when interpreting the actual archaeological findings.

One of the pictures you provided talks about:

The Basilica of the Five Martyrs, erected in the middle of the 4th century.
Above the grave of 5 martyrs: the priest Asterius + 4 praetorians (Antiochianus, Gaianus, Paulinianus, Telius)
Executed April 304 CE during Diocletian's last persecution
Bodies buried at nearby minor pagan cemetery ....
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: The Myth of the Pagan Persecution of Christians

#267  Postby Tracer Tong » Aug 29, 2017 1:29 am

Leucius Charinus wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
As an amateur historian...


When you describe yourself like this, in what way are you distinguishing yourself from the man in the street, as it were?


I have spent the time examining and investigating the actual historical sources (literary, epigraphic, numismatic, etc) and in becoming familiar with the historical method used by classical historians as distinct from that used by biblical historians,

That's about all.


OK. What's the historical method used by classical historians as distinct from that used by Biblical historians, as you see it?
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Re: The Myth of the Pagan Persecution of Christians

#268  Postby Leucius Charinus » Aug 29, 2017 3:54 am

Tracer Tong wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
As an amateur historian...


When you describe yourself like this, in what way are you distinguishing yourself from the man in the street, as it were?


I have spent the time examining and investigating the actual historical sources (literary, epigraphic, numismatic, etc) and in becoming familiar with the historical method used by classical historians as distinct from that used by biblical historians,

That's about all.


OK. What's the historical method used by classical historians as distinct from that used by Biblical historians, as you see it?



One example might be that the Biblical historians seem to have made use of a series of "Historicity Criteria" discussed by Carrier et al:

    “Bayes Theorem for Beginners: Formal Logic and Its Relevance to Historical Method” December 2008 (Amherst, NY) Notes and Bibliography

    1. Essential Reading on “Historicity Criteria”

    Stanley Porter, The Criteria for Authenticity in Historical-Jesus Research: Previous Discussion and New Proposals (Sheffield Academic Press: 2000).
    Christopher Tuckett, “Sources and Methods,” The Cambridge Companion to Jesus, edited by Markus Bockmuehl (Cambridge University Press: 2001): pp. 121-37.
    Gerd Theissen and Dagmar Winter, The Quest for the Plausible Jesus: The Question of Criteria (John Knox Press: 2002).


    2. Example List of Popular Historicity Criteria

    Incomplete List (names often differ, criteria often overlap – here are 17; there are two or three dozen):
    Dissimilarity - dissimilar to independent Jewish or Christian precedent
    Embarrassment - if it was embarrassing, it must be true
    Coherence - coheres with other confirmed data
    Multiple Attestation - attested in more than one independent source
    Contextual Plausibility - plausible in a Jewish or Greco-Roman cultural context
    Historical Plausibility - coheres with a plausible historical reconstruction
    Natural Probability - coheres with natural science (etc.)
    Explanatory Credibility - historicity better explains later traditions
    Oral Preservability - capable of surviving oral transmission
    Fabricatory Trend - isn’t part of known trends in fabrication or embellishment
    Least Distinctiveness - the simpler version is the more historical
    Vividness of Narration - the more vivid, the more historical
    Crucifixion - explains why Jesus was crucified
    Greek Context - if whole context suggests parties speaking Greek
    Aramaic Context - if whole context suggests parties speaking Aramaic
    Textual Variance - the more invariable a tradition, the more historical
    Discourse Features - if J’s speeches cohere in style but differ fr. surrounding text
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: The Myth of the Pagan Persecution of Christians

#269  Postby MS2 » Aug 29, 2017 11:32 pm

Leucius Charinus wrote:
In a further section of that article is states:

    Bishop Domnio (locally; St Duje, later the patron saint of Split), who died a martyr's death in the arena of the Salonitan amphitheatre, was in 304 A.D. buried at Manastirne, and over his grave a memorial chapel was built. Soon to be erected around it were similar chapels which served as Christian burial places. In the 5th century, Bishop Gaianus had a large three-aisled basilica constructed over the cemetery complex, with Bishop Domnio`s grave in the presbytery. Next to it are the graves of other Salonitan bishops, Bishop Domnio`s successors, who were buried there in the course of the 4th and 5th centuries.

For example do we have a archaeological gravestone inscribed with a date etc for Bishop Domnio or do we just have Eusebius?

Here you go: http://www.mdc.hr/split-arheoloski/eng/ ... ficka.html
Click on 'Tombstone of Bishop Domnius'
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Re: The Myth of the Pagan Persecution of Christians

#270  Postby Leucius Charinus » Aug 30, 2017 3:27 am

OK, we have some claims to have a look at ....
All the following is from that link ...

Image

A.D. 304
•Marble
•Size of the fragment: 27 x 11.8 cm

This fragment of the tombstone of St Domnius, who was a bishop and a martyr, represents one of the most significant monuments of Salonitan Christianity. The fragment is a part of an inscribed slab, of which several letters of Domnius' name and the full date of his death have been preserved: 11 April 304.

ABOUT THE COLLECTION

The Epigraphic Collection (collection of inscriptions) is the oldest museum collection that includes monuments originally contained in the Papalic Renaissance collection that was described by Marulic.

Today this collection houses over 6,000 inscriptions, mostly Latin ones. The collection is not displayed as a separate museum collection, but is incorporated in other chronological collections: Graeco-Hellenistic, Roman-Provincial, Early Christian, and Old Croatian. The largest number of inscriptions originate from Salona and are put on view in the Museum collection of stone monuments. Other inscriptions are to be seen in situ in Salona.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Domnius

    Saint Domnius (also known as Saint Dujam or Saint Duje, Saint Domnio, Saint Doimus, or Saint Domninus) was a 3rd-century Bishop of Salona and patron of the city of Split. Salona was a large Roman city serving as capital of the Province of Dalmatia. Today it is located near the city of Split in modern Croatia. Saint Domnius was martyred with seven other Christians in the persecutions of the Emperor Diocletian. He was born in Antioch, in modern-day Turkey but historically in Syria, and beheaded in 304 at Salona.

    He was more likely a martyr of the 4th century, but Christian tradition also states that he was one of the Seventy Disciples of the 1st century.[1] This tradition holds that Domnio came to Rome with Saint Peter and was then sent by Peter to evangelize Dalmatia, where he was martyred along with 8 soldiers he had converted.[1]

    ///

    Veneration

    His relics were later moved to the Cathedral of Saint Domnius. When Salona was sacked by the Avars and Slavs in the 6th century, the population eventually moved to the nearby Palace of Diocletian, enlarging the nearby city of Split (Spalatum), and establishing it as the successor to Salona. Saint Domnius became the city's patron saint, and the city's cathedral (the Cathedral of Saint Domnius) was built in the mausoleum of Diocletian itself, the emperor who martyred him.

    The Basilica of St. John Lateran in Rome claims to own some of Domnio's relics, since Pope John IV, in the 7th century, had requested that relics of a martyr named Domnio be brought to Rome.[1]

    [1] Benedictine Monks of St Augustine’s Abbey Ramsgate, The Book of saints:
    a dictionary of servants of God (Ramsgate: St. Augustine’s Abbey), 84.
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: The Myth of the Pagan Persecution of Christians

#271  Postby Leucius Charinus » Sep 04, 2017 3:18 pm

This page: https://orthodoxwiki.org/Diocletianic_Martyrs mentions Domnio of Salona under the heading of "Historical martyrs named to in authentic Acta, semi-historical Acts, or later credible sources"

The task is to identify the earliest literary source for the martyrology of Domnio. If it is not Eusebius, then perhaps it is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrolo ... ronymianum
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: The Myth of the Pagan Persecution of Christians

#272  Postby Leucius Charinus » Sep 14, 2017 5:00 pm

MS2 wrote:Here you go: http://www.mdc.hr/split-arheoloski/eng/ ... ficka.html
Click on 'Tombstone of Bishop Domnius'


It would appear that the first literary reference to this Domnius is from the 13th century.

What does this sound like to you?

Where does that leave the tombstone ... (from the Papalic Renaissance collection that was described by Marulic?)

I don't think the historical integrity of this stuff passes muster.



https://www.academia.edu/459345/THE_PAS ... N_DALMATIA

    THE PASSION OF ST. DOMNIUS: THE TRADITION OF APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION IN DALMATIA

    St. Domnius (Lat. Domnius, Domnio, Ital. Doimo, Croat Dujam, Duje) was, in fact still is, the holy protector of the metropolis of Salona-Spalato. Late antique Salona, the capital city of the Roman province of Dalmatia was a very important Christian centre in the Mediterranean region without any exaggeration comparable with Ravenna and Aquileia in Italy.1 Spalato (Croat Split) originated very close to ancient Salona and indeed was her successor in respect to ecclesiastical authority when Salona perished in the seventh century. The early history of the Church of Salona is mainly known due two medieval Histories — the History of Archbishops of Salona and Spalato written in the mid-thirteenth century by Archdeacon Thomas of Spalato and the anonymous History of Archbishops of Salona whose earliest manuscript dates back to the early sixteenth century. The latter finishes its narrative in 1185 while the former continues to the middle of the thirteenth century. Both texts are almost identical except some vital interpolations added to the History of Archbishops of Salona. Both Histories, the common text as well as supplementary documents, glorified the Church of Spalato and enhanced its apostolic foundation and old metropolitan status. Who else but a bishop-saint, a bishop-martyr could be a more positive proof of the apostolicity of this Church! And indeed the Histories appeal to this figure of a saintly and apostolic founder — St. Domnius. Thomas of Spalato reported only basic facts about Salona’s patron saint.2 His more elaborate Passion was inserted among the supplementary documents in the History of Archbishops of Salona (see appendix)


"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: The Myth of the Pagan Persecution of Christians

#273  Postby MS2 » Sep 15, 2017 6:04 am

Leucius Charinus wrote:
MS2 wrote:Here you go: http://www.mdc.hr/split-arheoloski/eng/ ... ficka.html
Click on 'Tombstone of Bishop Domnius'


It would appear that the first literary reference to this Domnius is from the 13th century.

What does this sound like to you?

Where does that leave the tombstone ... (from the Papalic Renaissance collection that was described by Marulic?)

I don't think the historical integrity of this stuff passes muster.



https://www.academia.edu/459345/THE_PAS ... N_DALMATIA

    THE PASSION OF ST. DOMNIUS: THE TRADITION OF APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION IN DALMATIA

    St. Domnius (Lat. Domnius, Domnio, Ital. Doimo, Croat Dujam, Duje) was, in fact still is, the holy protector of the metropolis of Salona-Spalato. Late antique Salona, the capital city of the Roman province of Dalmatia was a very important Christian centre in the Mediterranean region without any exaggeration comparable with Ravenna and Aquileia in Italy.1 Spalato (Croat Split) originated very close to ancient Salona and indeed was her successor in respect to ecclesiastical authority when Salona perished in the seventh century. The early history of the Church of Salona is mainly known due two medieval Histories — the History of Archbishops of Salona and Spalato written in the mid-thirteenth century by Archdeacon Thomas of Spalato and the anonymous History of Archbishops of Salona whose earliest manuscript dates back to the early sixteenth century. The latter finishes its narrative in 1185 while the former continues to the middle of the thirteenth century. Both texts are almost identical except some vital interpolations added to the History of Archbishops of Salona. Both Histories, the common text as well as supplementary documents, glorified the Church of Spalato and enhanced its apostolic foundation and old metropolitan status. Who else but a bishop-saint, a bishop-martyr could be a more positive proof of the apostolicity of this Church! And indeed the Histories appeal to this figure of a saintly and apostolic founder — St. Domnius. Thomas of Spalato reported only basic facts about Salona’s patron saint.2 His more elaborate Passion was inserted among the supplementary documents in the History of Archbishops of Salona (see appendix)



I'm not sure what you are saying. It reads like you think the lateness of the earliest literary reference (you can find) enables you to dismiss the Archaeology. That's not what you mean is it?
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Re: The Myth of the Pagan Persecution of Christians

#274  Postby Leucius Charinus » Sep 15, 2017 8:20 am

MS2 wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
MS2 wrote:Here you go: http://www.mdc.hr/split-arheoloski/eng/ ... ficka.html
Click on 'Tombstone of Bishop Domnius'


It would appear that the first literary reference to this Domnius is from the 13th century.

What does this sound like to you?

Where does that leave the tombstone ... (from the Papalic Renaissance collection that was described by Marulic?)

I don't think the historical integrity of this stuff passes muster.



https://www.academia.edu/459345/THE_PAS ... N_DALMATIA

    THE PASSION OF ST. DOMNIUS: THE TRADITION OF APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION IN DALMATIA

    St. Domnius (Lat. Domnius, Domnio, Ital. Doimo, Croat Dujam, Duje) was, in fact still is, the holy protector of the metropolis of Salona-Spalato. Late antique Salona, the capital city of the Roman province of Dalmatia was a very important Christian centre in the Mediterranean region without any exaggeration comparable with Ravenna and Aquileia in Italy.1 Spalato (Croat Split) originated very close to ancient Salona and indeed was her successor in respect to ecclesiastical authority when Salona perished in the seventh century. The early history of the Church of Salona is mainly known due two medieval Histories — the History of Archbishops of Salona and Spalato written in the mid-thirteenth century by Archdeacon Thomas of Spalato and the anonymous History of Archbishops of Salona whose earliest manuscript dates back to the early sixteenth century. The latter finishes its narrative in 1185 while the former continues to the middle of the thirteenth century. Both texts are almost identical except some vital interpolations added to the History of Archbishops of Salona. Both Histories, the common text as well as supplementary documents, glorified the Church of Spalato and enhanced its apostolic foundation and old metropolitan status. Who else but a bishop-saint, a bishop-martyr could be a more positive proof of the apostolicity of this Church! And indeed the Histories appeal to this figure of a saintly and apostolic founder — St. Domnius. Thomas of Spalato reported only basic facts about Salona’s patron saint.2 His more elaborate Passion was inserted among the supplementary documents in the History of Archbishops of Salona (see appendix)



I'm not sure what you are saying. It reads like you think the lateness of the earliest literary reference (you can find) enables you to dismiss the Archaeology. That's not what you mean is it?


Image

Where's Wally? Where's Domnius?


The archaeology is a drawing made by Marko Marulić (1450-1524) when he visited an existing Papalic Renaissance collection of inscriptions. If you can find an earlier references to the 4th century Domnius that would be cool, but I cannot atm. It looks to me that we have a 13th century literary witness and a 16th century witness to a Papal Exhibited tombstone collection You can dismiss the possibility that I am not sceptical of this entire situation.

Maybe we should just keep asking questions?
Does the inscription still exist?
What does the inscription actually reveal and what has been "emended"? "DOMN"?

Could there be any other possible reconstructions of "DOMN" that do not point to this purported Domnius?

What do I mean at the moment?

How do we evaluate this evidence so far?


    Is this the gravestone of the Domnius mentioned in the 13th century as a martyr during Diolcetian's so-called persecution of Christians c.304 CE?


    Certain (100%)
    Almost Certain (87-99%)
    Probable (61-86%)
    Chances about EVEN (40-60%)
    Probably not (13-39%)
    Almost certainly not (1-12%)
    Impossible (0%)

My answer at the moment is that we don't really have a great deal of unambiguous evidence, and the evidence itself, being cultivated in self-serving Papal Collections (related to the rise in humanism etc) must remain in the slightly suspicious category. Therefore I'd probably back ---- Probably not (13-39%)

What do you think? Are you happy to accept the authority of the 13th century "Histories..." referred to above? Or the authority of the 16th century church collections of the tombstones of Saints and Martyrs who at that time supposed lived twelve centuries in the past.?
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: The Myth of the Pagan Persecution of Christians

#275  Postby MS2 » Sep 15, 2017 1:20 pm

Leucius Charinus wrote:
MS2 wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
MS2 wrote:...

I'm not sure what you are saying. It reads like you think the lateness of the earliest literary reference (you can find) enables you to dismiss the Archaeology. That's not what you mean is it?


Image

Where's Wally? Where's Domnius?


Oh good grief!

The archaeology is a drawing made by Marko Marulić (1450-1524) when he visited an existing Papalic Renaissance collection of inscriptions.

No it's not. (Though this drawing is presumably another piece of evidence). The archaeology is all those stones and stuff that I visited in Salona, and that's in the museum, and all the work the archaeologists have done on all of this.

Look again at the pictures I posted. They've found a host of Christian ruins from the fourth century and remains of a house church from earlier. Leaving aside the Domnio tomb, they've found evidence of Christian martyrs being memorialised in the ampitheatre and of martyr tombs being raised over the sites they were believed to have been buried.

On the Domnio tomb, a bit of his name is missing, but the slab is there in the museum as far as I can tell and there's a date on it which ties in with the independently attested Diocletianic persecution in 304. Further, the name fragment ties in with a later literary tradition of a bishop going by this name martyred at this time. It additionally ties in with the strong early tradition concerning Split Cathedral. Look it up on wiki. It was consecrated in the 7th century having been previously Diocletian's Mausoleum and became known as St Domnio's Cathedral and contains his purported relics, supposedly transferred there from the original tomb at Salona.

If you can find an earlier references to the 4th century Domnius that would be cool, but I cannot atm. It looks to me that we have a 13th century literary witness

Where do you think this 13th century literary witness came from? Did some guy conjure it up out of his imagination, or was he passing on a tradition that had been handed down?

and a 16th century witness to a Papal Exhibited tombstone collection You can dismiss the possibility that I am not sceptical of this entire situation.

I don't know what you are referring to here. Are you saying the picture of a tombstone i linked to is actually just a 16th century drawing? On what basis?

Maybe we should just keep asking questions?
Does the inscription still exist?
What does the inscription actually reveal and what has been "emended"? "DOMN"?

Could there be any other possible reconstructions of "DOMN" that do not point to this purported Domnius?

What do I mean at the moment?

How do we evaluate this evidence so far?


    Is this the gravestone of the Domnius mentioned in the 13th century as a martyr during Diolcetian's so-called persecution of Christians c.304 CE?


    Certain (100%)
    Almost Certain (87-99%)
    Probable (61-86%)
    Chances about EVEN (40-60%)
    Probably not (13-39%)
    Almost certainly not (1-12%)
    Impossible (0%)

My answer at the moment is that we don't really have a great deal of unambiguous evidence, and the evidence itself, being cultivated in self-serving Papal Collections (related to the rise in humanism etc) must remain in the slightly suspicious category. Therefore I'd probably back ---- Probably not (13-39%)

What do you think? Are you happy to accept the authority of the 13th century "Histories..." referred to above? Or the authority of the 16th century church collections of the tombstones of Saints and Martyrs who at that time supposed lived twelve centuries in the past.?

I can't be bothered to answer your loaded questions. And to my mind your attempted skepticism is actually a refusal to fairly assess evidence and to listen to the specialists such as archaeologists and historians.
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Re: The Myth of the Pagan Persecution of Christians

#276  Postby Leucius Charinus » Sep 16, 2017 6:18 am

I am assuming we are discussing specific evidence that you claim substantiates the historicity of the persecution by Diocletian.

MS2 wrote: The archaeology is all those stones and stuff that I visited in Salona, and that's in the museum, and all the work the archaeologists have done on all of this.

Look again at the pictures I posted. They've found a host of Christian ruins from the fourth century and remains of a house church from earlier.


I am aware of only one exemplar of a Christian "house-church", and that it as Dura Europos. Other claimed "house-churches", whether in Rome or elsewhere do not seem to be regarded as certain. In "Ante Pacem: archaeological evidence of church
life before Constantine", Graydon F. Snyder has a section on Martyria (p.87 to 92). In this section he mentions Salona, and the martyrs represented there. But he writes:

    "These martyrs were buried in ordinary cemetries in a style not readily distinguishable from the other burials."

    " ...... precision in dating is lacking."

    "None of these covered cemetries precede Constantine ..."


Leaving aside the Domnio tomb, they've found evidence of Christian martyrs being memorialised in the ampitheatre and of martyr tombs being raised over the sites they were believed to have been buried.


See above.

On the Domnio tomb, a bit of his name is missing, but the slab is there in the museum as far as I can tell and there's a date on it which ties in with the independently attested Diocletianic persecution in 304. Further, the name fragment ties in with a later literary tradition of a bishop going by this name martyred at this time. It additionally ties in with the strong early tradition concerning Split Cathedral. Look it up on wiki. It was consecrated in the 7th century having been previously Diocletian's Mausoleum and became known as St Domnio's Cathedral and contains his purported relics, supposedly transferred there from the original tomb at Salona.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral ... nt_Domnius

    The Cathedral of Saint Domnius (Croatian: Katedrala Svetog Duje), known locally as the Saint Dujam (Sveti Dujam) or colloquially Saint Duje (Sveti Duje), is the Catholic cathedral in Split, Croatia. The cathedral is the seat of the Archdiocese of Split-Makarska, headed by Archbishop Marin Barišić. The Cathedral of St. Domnius is a complex of a church, formed from an Imperial Roman mausoleum, with a bell tower; strictly the church is dedicated to the Virgin Mary, and the bell tower to Saint Domnius. Together they form the Cathedral of St. Domnius.

    The Cathedral of Saint Domnius, consecrated at the turn of the 7th century AD, is regarded as the oldest Catholic cathedral in the world that remains in use in its original structure, without near-complete renovation at a later date (though the bell tower dates from the 12th century). The structure itself, built in AD 305 as the Mausoleum of Diocletian, is the second oldest structure used by any Christian Cathedral.

    NAME: The cathedral was named after Saint Domnius (Saint Dujam, or Saint Domnius) patron saint of Split, who was a 3rd-century Bishop of Salona. Salona was a large Roman city serving as capital of the Province of Dalmatia. Today it is located near the city of Solin in Croatia. Saint Domnius was martyred with seven other Christians in the persecutions of the Emperor Diocletian. He was born in Antioch, in modern-day Turkey, and beheaded in 304 at Salona.


Fascinating stuff. Diocletian's mausoleum is converted to a Christian church that is now named after the Christian Bishop of Salono, whom Diocletian had beheaded.


If you can find an earlier references to the 4th century Domnius that would be cool, but I cannot atm. It looks to me that we have a 13th century literary witness


Where do you think this 13th century literary witness came from? Did some guy conjure it up out of his imagination, or was he passing on a tradition that had been handed down?


Well that's a good question. Here is what that academia article narrates:

    The early history of the Church of Salona is mainly known due two medieval Histories — the History of Archbishops of Salona and Spalato written in the mid-thirteenth century by Archdeacon Thomas of Spalato and the anonymous History of Archbishops of Salona whose earliest manuscript dates back to the early sixteenth century. The latter finishes its narrative in 1185 while the former continues to the middle of the thirteenth century. Both texts are almost identical except some vital interpolations added to the History of Archbishops of Salona. Both Histories, the common text as well as supplementary documents, glorified the Church of Spalato and enhanced its apostolic foundation and old metropolitan status. Who else but a bishop-saint, a bishop-martyr could be a more positive proof of the apostolicity of this Church! And indeed the Histories appeal to this figure of a saintly and apostolic founder — St. Domnius.


In this instance we appear to be interested in the question related to the historicity of Bishop Domnius, and whether he was, as claimed by the martyrologies of the orthodox church, beheaded during Diocletian's "Great Persecution".

We need to seek out evidence in support.


and a 16th century witness to a Papal Exhibited tombstone collection You can dismiss the possibility that I am not sceptical of this entire situation.


I don't know what you are referring to here. Are you saying the picture of a tombstone i linked to is actually just a 16th century drawing? On what basis?


The collection of inscriptions that you linked to is described as including "monuments originally contained in the Papalic Renaissance collection that was described by Marulic."

IDK whether the Domnius tombstone is from the Marulic descriptions, (i.e. a 15th century collection of drawings), or whether it is preserved in a museum.

That's why I asked ....

Maybe we should just keep asking questions?
Does the inscription still exist?
What does the inscription actually reveal and what has been "emended"? "DOMN"?
Could there be any other possible reconstructions of "DOMN" that do not point to this purported Domnius?



EVALUATION.

I am assuming you are not 100% certain about the historicity of Bishop Domnius,
That is why provided a spectrum of confidence as follows ...

    Is this the gravestone of the Domnius mentioned in the 13th century as a martyr during Diolcetian's so-called persecution of Christians c.304 CE?


    Certain (100%)
    Almost Certain (87-99%)
    Probable (61-86%)
    Chances about EVEN (40-60%)
    Probably not (13-39%)
    Almost certainly not (1-12%)
    Impossible (0%)

I don't think its a loaded question to ask how you would answer the above question.

I can't be bothered to answer your loaded questions. And to my mind your attempted skepticism is actually a refusal to fairly assess evidence and to listen to the specialists such as archaeologists and historians.


Don't forget the church has been involved with the history and the archaeology of its "Holy Martyrs" and often it is a case of gong back to first principles in order to understand just what the evidence is in any one case. The veneration of the martyrs, including the trading or relics, and bones and holy foreskins, and all sorts of bullshit, appeared in the later 4th century, and was actively promoted by Pope Damasius in Rome. He renovated the Roman catacombs.
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: The Myth of the Pagan Persecution of Christians

#277  Postby MS2 » Sep 16, 2017 6:17 pm

Leucius Charinus wrote:I am assuming we are discussing specific evidence that you claim substantiates the historicity of the persecution by Diocletian.

Ha ha. No, it's archaeology which the archaeologists say is as as they have described. I am comfortable with accepting their judgement. I know perfectly well that there will be no substantiating anything in your eyes since all evidence is tainted by the Great Conspiracy.

MS2 wrote: The archaeology is all those stones and stuff that I visited in Salona, and that's in the museum, and all the work the archaeologists have done on all of this.

Look again at the pictures I posted. They've found a host of Christian ruins from the fourth century and remains of a house church from earlier.


I am aware of only one exemplar of a Christian "house-church", and that it as Dura Europos. Other claimed "house-churches", whether in Rome or elsewhere do not seem to be regarded as certain. In "Ante Pacem: archaeological evidence of church
life before Constantine", Graydon F. Snyder has a section on Martyria (p.87 to 92). In this section he mentions Salona, and the martyrs represented there. But he writes:

    "These martyrs were buried in ordinary cemetries in a style not readily distinguishable from the other burials."

    " ...... precision in dating is lacking."

    "None of these covered cemetries precede Constantine ..."


Leaving aside the Domnio tomb, they've found evidence of Christian martyrs being memorialised in the ampitheatre and of martyr tombs being raised over the sites they were believed to have been buried.


See above.

There's no point addressing this given your approach

On the Domnio tomb, a bit of his name is missing, but the slab is there in the museum as far as I can tell and there's a date on it which ties in with the independently attested Diocletianic persecution in 304. Further, the name fragment ties in with a later literary tradition of a bishop going by this name martyred at this time. It additionally ties in with the strong early tradition concerning Split Cathedral. Look it up on wiki. It was consecrated in the 7th century having been previously Diocletian's Mausoleum and became known as St Domnio's Cathedral and contains his purported relics, supposedly transferred there from the original tomb at Salona.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral ... nt_Domnius

    The Cathedral of Saint Domnius (Croatian: Katedrala Svetog Duje), known locally as the Saint Dujam (Sveti Dujam) or colloquially Saint Duje (Sveti Duje), is the Catholic cathedral in Split, Croatia. The cathedral is the seat of the Archdiocese of Split-Makarska, headed by Archbishop Marin Barišić. The Cathedral of St. Domnius is a complex of a church, formed from an Imperial Roman mausoleum, with a bell tower; strictly the church is dedicated to the Virgin Mary, and the bell tower to Saint Domnius. Together they form the Cathedral of St. Domnius.

    The Cathedral of Saint Domnius, consecrated at the turn of the 7th century AD, is regarded as the oldest Catholic cathedral in the world that remains in use in its original structure, without near-complete renovation at a later date (though the bell tower dates from the 12th century). The structure itself, built in AD 305 as the Mausoleum of Diocletian, is the second oldest structure used by any Christian Cathedral.

    NAME: The cathedral was named after Saint Domnius (Saint Dujam, or Saint Domnius) patron saint of Split, who was a 3rd-century Bishop of Salona. Salona was a large Roman city serving as capital of the Province of Dalmatia. Today it is located near the city of Solin in Croatia. Saint Domnius was martyred with seven other Christians in the persecutions of the Emperor Diocletian. He was born in Antioch, in modern-day Turkey, and beheaded in 304 at Salona.


Fascinating stuff. Diocletian's mausoleum is converted to a Christian church that is now named after the Christian Bishop of Salono, whom Diocletian had beheaded.


If you can find an earlier references to the 4th century Domnius that would be cool, but I cannot atm. It looks to me that we have a 13th century literary witness


Where do you think this 13th century literary witness came from? Did some guy conjure it up out of his imagination, or was he passing on a tradition that had been handed down?


Well that's a good question. Here is what that academia article narrates:

    The early history of the Church of Salona is mainly known due two medieval Histories — the History of Archbishops of Salona and Spalato written in the mid-thirteenth century by Archdeacon Thomas of Spalato and the anonymous History of Archbishops of Salona whose earliest manuscript dates back to the early sixteenth century. The latter finishes its narrative in 1185 while the former continues to the middle of the thirteenth century. Both texts are almost identical except some vital interpolations added to the History of Archbishops of Salona. Both Histories, the common text as well as supplementary documents, glorified the Church of Spalato and enhanced its apostolic foundation and old metropolitan status. Who else but a bishop-saint, a bishop-martyr could be a more positive proof of the apostolicity of this Church! And indeed the Histories appeal to this figure of a saintly and apostolic founder — St. Domnius.

That article also says an awful lot else that you seem to have ignored

In this instance we appear to be interested in the question related to the historicity of Bishop Domnius, and whether he was, as claimed by the martyrologies of the orthodox church, beheaded during Diocletian's "Great Persecution".

We need to seek out evidence in support.


and a 16th century witness to a Papal Exhibited tombstone collection You can dismiss the possibility that I am not sceptical of this entire situation.


I don't know what you are referring to here. Are you saying the picture of a tombstone i linked to is actually just a 16th century drawing? On what basis?


The collection of inscriptions that you linked to is described as including "monuments originally contained in the Papalic Renaissance collection that was described by Marulic."

IDK whether the Domnius tombstone is from the Marulic descriptions, (i.e. a 15th century collection of drawings), or whether it is preserved in a museum.

That's why I asked ....

Maybe we should just keep asking questions?
Does the inscription still exist?

Yes. It's the in the museum I linked to. It's a marble fragment. It's not a drawing. There's a photo of it, which you posted!

What does the inscription actually reveal and what has been "emended"? "DOMN"?

Could there be any other possible reconstructions of "DOMN" that do not point to this purported Domnius?

You've got a picture of it. You can see for yourself. But of course those are questions the archaeologists considered and would have reported on. It's easy to create 'what if' questions like you are doing about absolutely anything.
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Re: The Myth of the Pagan Persecution of Christians

#278  Postby Leucius Charinus » Sep 17, 2017 3:07 am

MS2 wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:I am assuming we are discussing specific evidence that you claim substantiates the historicity of the persecution by Diocletian.


Ha ha. No, it's archaeology which the archaeologists say is as as they have described. I am comfortable with accepting their judgement.


You don't seem to be too comfortable with people questioning the history of the evidence, how these evaluations were formed, and the extent to which the orthodox church was involved.

I know perfectly well that there will be no substantiating anything in your eyes since all evidence is tainted by the Great Conspiracy.


Are you telling me that the later 4th century Nicene Christian church did not conspired to inaugurate the invention of Christian hagiography, the veneration of the Christian Saints and Christian Martyrs, and the trading of bones and relics between the Christian churches?

Are those truly gruesome tales about the death of the Christian martyrs being thrown to the lions in the coliseum all true?

Wow.

Ante Pacem: archaeological evidence of church life before Constantine
-- by Graydon F. Snyder

    "The real founders of the science of early Christian archaeology came in the 19th century:
    Giuseppe Marchi (1795-1860) and Giovanni de Rossi (1822-1894)...[the latter] published
    between 1857 and 1861 the first volume of "Inscriptiones christianae urbis Romae". Pope
    Pius IX moved beyond collecting by appointing in 1852 a commission - "Commissione de
    archaelogia sacra" - that would be responsible for all early Christian remains."
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: The Myth of the Pagan Persecution of Christians

#279  Postby MS2 » Sep 18, 2017 12:28 pm

Leucius Charinus wrote:
MS2 wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:I am assuming we are discussing specific evidence that you claim substantiates the historicity of the persecution by Diocletian.


Ha ha. No, it's archaeology which the archaeologists say is as as they have described. I am comfortable with accepting their judgement.


You don't seem to be too comfortable with people questioning the history of the evidence, how these evaluations were formed, and the extent to which the orthodox church was involved.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
I'm very comfortable with it, it's what the archaeologists and historians do all the time.
If you are suggesting that is what you are doing, on the other hand, it seems to me your 'questioning' actually amounts to little more than trawling the internet for whatever shit you can find and throwing it in the hope it will stick

I know perfectly well that there will be no substantiating anything in your eyes since all evidence is tainted by the Great Conspiracy.


Are you telling me that the later 4th century Nicene Christian church did not conspired to inaugurate the invention of Christian hagiography, the veneration of the Christian Saints and Christian Martyrs, and the trading of bones and relics between the Christian churches?

Thanks for proving my point :grin:

Are those truly gruesome tales about the death of the Christian martyrs being thrown to the lions in the coliseum all true?

Wow.

And again :grin:

(Also, you really do specialise in loaded questions don't you?!)

Ante Pacem: archaeological evidence of church life before Constantine
-- by Graydon F. Snyder

    "The real founders of the science of early Christian archaeology came in the 19th century:
    Giuseppe Marchi (1795-1860) and Giovanni de Rossi (1822-1894)...[the latter] published
    between 1857 and 1861 the first volume of "Inscriptiones christianae urbis Romae". Pope
    Pius IX moved beyond collecting by appointing in 1852 a commission - "Commissione de
    archaelogia sacra" - that would be responsible for all early Christian remains."

And again :mrgreen:
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Re: The Myth of the Pagan Persecution of Christians

#280  Postby Leucius Charinus » Sep 19, 2017 2:41 am

MS2 wrote:
Leucius Charinus wrote:
MS2 wrote:I know perfectly well that there will be no substantiating anything in your eyes since all evidence is tainted by the Great Conspiracy.


Are you telling me that the later 4th century Nicene Christian church did not conspired to inaugurate the invention of Christian hagiography, the veneration of the Christian Saints and Christian Martyrs, and the trading of bones and relics between the Christian churches?


Thanks for proving my point :grin:


Thanks for answering my question. Maybe you can visit the Vatican next? There's a lot there you could believe in.
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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