The New Testament without the Gospels and Acts

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The New Testament without the Gospels and Acts

#1  Postby Clive Durdle » Jul 26, 2020 12:03 pm

Has anyone attempted a detailed look at the New Testament after removing all references to and assumptions from the Gospels and Acts?

I propose the result is a very different set of documents that make sense in their own terms and that many conflicts and confusions are directly caused by importing later assumptions.

The classic example is that the second coming will disappear - the documents are discussing the coming of the Christ, Yahweh’s anointed saviour, the name above all names without a name.
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Re: The New Testament without the Gospels and Acts

#2  Postby Ironclad » Jul 26, 2020 12:16 pm

Without Acts and Gospels we’re left with Epistles and Revelation. How do we skip the second coming of Jebus?
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Re: The New Testament without the Gospels and Acts

#3  Postby Clive Durdle » Jul 26, 2020 12:23 pm

I am arguing the epistles and revelation are documents written with no input from the Gospels and Acts - as they were not written to later and their purpose was not to provide a history but a back story attempting to conjoin different story lines about a moral teacher (if there was one) and god becoming man. There was no first coming so the epistles and revelation are discussing a first coming.

We continually read stuff that is not there because we assume Gospels Acts.
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Re: The New Testament without the Gospels and Acts

#4  Postby Keep It Real » Jul 26, 2020 12:38 pm

This thread lends the bible far more respect than it deserves.
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Re: The New Testament without the Gospels and Acts

#5  Postby Clive Durdle » Jul 26, 2020 1:21 pm

Am l? All I am doing is asking precisely what the foundations are and how we got from there the here? A clade diagram. Vast chunks of the planet accept it at face value, maybe it ain’t necessarily so?
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Re: The New Testament without the Gospels and Acts

#6  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jul 26, 2020 2:19 pm

Just throw in a couple generic "God is a delusion, of course" and "The Bible is a fairy tale" for good measure and you'll be fine. It would be nice if we were beyond this sort of reflexive chest beating, but is what it is.
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Re: The New Testament without the Gospels and Acts

#7  Postby laklak » Jul 26, 2020 3:39 pm

I'd imagine it would still be a load of bollocks, just without Gospels or Acts.
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Re: The New Testament without the Gospels and Acts

#8  Postby Macdoc » Jul 26, 2020 3:43 pm

With or without...why grown people cling to bullshit fairytales is beyond me .... :coffee:
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Re: The New Testament without the Gospels and Acts

#9  Postby laklak » Jul 26, 2020 3:44 pm

No idea. People don't make a lot of sense to me, in general.
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Re: The New Testament without the Gospels and Acts

#10  Postby Svartalf » Jul 26, 2020 3:55 pm

laklak wrote:I'd imagine it would still be a load of bollocks, just without Gospels or Acts.

given that the epistle and apocalypse are the worst bollocks in the bunch....
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Re: The New Testament without the Gospels and Acts

#11  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 26, 2020 4:20 pm

Clive Durdle wrote:All I am doing is asking precisely what the foundations are and how we got from there the here? A clade diagram.


The part that worries me is where you imply that this task can meet with success. If I've mistaken your focus, forgive me.

I mean this, Clive:

Clive Durdle wrote:
I propose the result is a very different set of documents that make sense in their own terms


Of course, this "making sense" may just be "making sense to me". Other people try to find the Tetragrammaton buried in the digits of pi.
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Re: The New Testament without the Gospels and Acts

#12  Postby laklak » Jul 26, 2020 4:26 pm

It's only a Tetragrammaton if you print it in landscape mode on A4 paper with standard margins.
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Re: The New Testament without the Gospels and Acts

#13  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 26, 2020 4:30 pm

laklak wrote:It's only a Tetragrammaton if you print it in landscape mode on A4 paper with standard margins.


That's not what I heard. I heard that in order to see it, when you look at the data, you have to think like a Vegan. This has nothing to do with soybeans.

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Re: The New Testament without the Gospels and Acts

#14  Postby Clive Durdle » Jul 26, 2020 5:51 pm

The Epistles and the Apocalypse are assumed to be related to the Gospels and Acts. But are they? This is an obvious point to me and makes sense of obvious contradictory views like the epistles seem to be talking of a first coming.

Someone must have explored this.
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Re: The New Testament without the Gospels and Acts

#15  Postby dogsgod » Jul 28, 2020 7:01 pm

Clive Durdle wrote:Has anyone attempted a detailed look at the New Testament after removing all references to and assumptions from the Gospels and Acts?

I propose the result is a very different set of documents that make sense in their own terms and that many conflicts and confusions are directly caused by importing later assumptions.

The classic example is that the second coming will disappear - the documents are discussing the coming of the Christ, Yahweh’s anointed saviour, the name above all names without a name.


I think that was more or less the point of Doherty's book, the Jesus Puzzle, there might be another thread on that.
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Re: The New Testament without the Gospels and Acts

#16  Postby Leucius Charinus » Aug 04, 2020 2:30 pm

Clive Durdle wrote:The Epistles and the Apocalypse are assumed to be related to the Gospels and Acts. But are they?


Both make use of nomina sacra. Maybe a later editor?

..... the epistles seem to be talking of a first coming.


Maybe the letters were written earlier but there was a postal delay and they were delivered decades later?

Someone must have explored this.


The Letter of Peter to Philip (NHC 8.2) says that Jesus responded
to various questions of the gathered apostles by saying
"Why are you asking me?"


Perhaps this letter from the Nag Hammadi codices summarises the whole Christian message?
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

Emperor Julian (362 CE)
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Re: The New Testament without the Gospels and Acts

#17  Postby dejuror » Aug 19, 2020 5:45 am

Clive Durdle wrote:The Epistles and the Apocalypse are assumed to be related to the Gospels and Acts. But are they? This is an obvious point to me and makes sense of obvious contradictory views like the epistles seem to be talking of a first coming.

Someone must have explored this.


In the Epistles, like the Gospels and Acts, Jesus Christ the Son of God had already come.

`1John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


1 John 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.


1 John 4:14
And[i] we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.


1 John 5:20

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.


2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.


1 Corinthians 15
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day
according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me
also, as of one born out of due time.



Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


1 Thessalonians 2
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets
, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men


Galatians 4:4

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law


Romans 8:3

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.


1 Peter 5:1

The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed.


2 Peter 1
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
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Re: The New Testament without the Gospels and Acts

#18  Postby Svartalf » Aug 19, 2020 12:41 pm

Onne question I never asked when this thread was started... but without the gospels and acts, does the epistles+revelation set even make any kind of sense?
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Re: The New Testament without the Gospels and Acts

#19  Postby dejuror » Aug 20, 2020 6:37 am

Svartalf wrote:Onne question I never asked when this thread was started... but without the gospels and acts, does the epistles+revelation set even make any kind of sense?


The Epistles and Revelation apparently make sense to hundreds of millions of people.

Galatians 2:20

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


1 Corinthians 15
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.


Romans 10.9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


Ephesians 2.8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.



Philippians 2. 9
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



Colossians 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.



1 Thess. 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Revelation 21.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
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Re: The New Testament without the Gospels and Acts

#20  Postby laklak » Aug 20, 2020 4:21 pm

There's a whole lot of nonsense that makes sense to a whole lot of people. Every single religion, for starters. Q Anon, Reptilian shape-shifting aliens, hollow earth, flat earth, expanding earth, 5G Coronavirus, et. al. Probably the worst advertisement for anything is that a lot of people believe it.
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