The Pope, the Prophet, and the religious support for evil

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The Pope, the Prophet, and the religious support for evil

#1  Postby MattHunX » Mar 20, 2010 10:34 am

This is from the RDF articles section:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 23656.html

Johann Hari: The Pope, the Prophet, and the religious support for evil

This enforced 'respect' is a creeping vine: it soon extends from ideas to institutions

Friday, 19 March 2010

What can make tens of millions of people – who are in their daily lives peaceful and compassionate and caring – suddenly want to physically dismember a man for drawing a cartoon, or make excuses for an international criminal conspiracy to protect child-rapists? Not reason. Not evidence. No. But it can happen when people choose their polar opposite – religion. In the past week we have seen two examples of how people can begin to behave in bizarre ways when they decide it is a good thing to abandon any commitment to fact and instead act on faith. It has led some to regard people accused of the attempted murders of the Mohamed cartoonists as victims, and to demand "respect" for the Pope, when he should be in a police station being quizzed about his role in covering up and thereby enabling the rape of children.

In 2005, 12 men in a small secular European democracy decided to draw a quasi-mythical figure who has been dead for 1400 years. They were trying to make a point. They knew that in many Muslim cultures, it is considered offensive to draw Mohamed. But they have a culture too – a European culture that believes it is important to be allowed to mock and tease and ridicule religion. It is because Europeans have been doing this for centuries now that we can no longer be tyrannised into feeling bad about perfectly natural impulses, like masturbation, or pre-marital sex, or homosexuality. When priests offer those old arguments, we now laugh in their faces – a great liberating moment. It will be a shining day for Muslims when they can do the same.

Some of the cartoons were witty. Some were stupid. One seemed to suggest Muslims are inherently violent – an obnoxious and false idea. If you disagree with the drawings, you should write a letter, or draw a better cartoon, this time mocking the cartoonists. But some people did not react this way. Instead, Islamist plots to hunt the artists down and slaughter them began. Earlier this year, a man with an axe smashed into one of their houses, and very nearly killed the cartoonist in front of his small grand-daughter.
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This week, another plot to murder them seems to have been exposed, this time allegedly spanning Ireland and the United States, and many people who consider themselves humanitarians or liberals have rushed forward to offer condemnation – of the cartoonists. One otherwise liberal newspaper ran an article saying that since the cartoonists had engaged in an "aggressive act" and shown "prejudice... against religion per se", so it stated menacingly that no doubt "someone else is out there waiting for an opportunity to strike again".

Let's state some principles that – if religion wasn't involved – would be so obvious it would seem ludicrous to have to say them out loud. Drawing a cartoon is not an act of aggression. Trying to kill somebody with an axe is. There is no moral equivalence between peacefully expressing your disagreement with an idea – any idea – and trying to kill somebody for it. Yet we have to say this because we have allowed religious people to claim their ideas belong to a different, exalted category, and it is abusive or violent merely to verbally question them. Nobody says I should "respect" conservatism or communism and keep my opposition to them to myself – but that's exactly what is routinely said about Islam or Christianity or Buddhism. What's the difference?

This enforced "respect" is a creeping vine. It soon extends beyond religious ideas to religious institutions – even when they commit the worst crimes imaginable. It is now an indisputable fact that the Catholic Church systematically covered up the rape of children across the globe, and knowingly, consciously put paedophiles in charge of more kids. Joseph Ratzinger – who claims to be "infallible" – was at the heart of this policy for decades.

Here's what we are sure of. By 1962, it was becoming clear to the Vatican that a significant number of its priests were raping children. Rather than root it out, they issued a secret order called "Crimen Sollicitationis"' ordering bishops to swear the victims to secrecy and move the offending priest on to another parish. This of course meant they raped more children there, and on and on, in parish after parish. Yes, these were different times, but the Vatican knew then that what it was doing was terribly wrong: that's why it was done in the utmost secrecy.

It has emerged this week that when Ratzinger was Archbishop of Munich in the 1980s, one of his paedophile priests was "reassigned" in this way. He claims he didn't know. Yet a few years later he was put in charge of the Vatican's response to this kind of abuse and demanded every case had to be referred directly to him for 20 years. What happened on his watch, with every case going to his desk? Precisely this pattern, again and again. The BBC's Panorama studied one of many such cases. Father Tarcisio Spricigo was first accused of child abuse in 1991, in Brazil. He was moved by the Vatican four times, wrecking the lives of children at every stop. He was only caught in 2005 by the police, before he could be moved on once more. He had written in his diary about the kind of victims he sought: "Age: 7, 8, 9, 10. Social condition: Poor. Family condition: preferably a son without a father. How to attract them: guitar lessons, choir, altar boy." It happened all over the world, wherever the Catholic Church had outposts.

Far from changing this paedophile-protecting model, Ratzinger reinforced it. In 2001 he issued a strict secret order demanding that charges of child-rape should be investigated by the Church "in the most secretive way... restrained by a perpetual silence... and everyone... is to observe the strictest secret." Since it was leaked, Ratzinger claims – bizarrely – that these requirements didn't prevent bishops from approaching the police. Even many people employed by the Vatican at the time say this is wrong. Father Tom Doyle, who was a Vatican lawyer working on these cases, says it "is an explicit written policy to cover up cases of child sexual abuse and to punish those who would call attention to these crimes... Nowhere in any of these documents does it say anything about helping the victims. The only thing it does say is they can impose fear on the victims, and punish [them], for disclosing what happened." Doyle was soon fired.

Imagine if this happened at The Independent. Imagine I discovered there was a paedophile ring running our crèche, and the Editor issued a stern order that it should be investigated internally with "the strictest secrecy". Imagine he merely shuffled the paedophiles to work in another crèche at another newspaper, and I agreed, and made the kids sign a pledge of secrecy. We would both – rightly – go to prison. Yet because the word "religion" is whispered, the rules change. Suddenly, otherwise good people who wouldn't dream of covering up a paedophile ring in their workplace think it would be an insult to them to follow one wherever it leads in their Church. They would find this behaviour unthinkable without the irrational barrier of faith standing between them and reality.

Yes, I understand some people feel sad when they see a figure they were taught as a child to revere – whether Prophet or Pope – being subjected to rational examination, or mockery, or criminal investigation. But everyone has ideas they hold precious. Only you, the religious, demand to be protected from debate or scrutiny that might discomfort you. The fact you believe an invisible supernatural being approves of – or even commands – your behaviour doesn't mean it deserves more respect, or sensitive handling. It means it deserves less. If you base your behaviour on such a preposterous fantasy, you should expect to be checked by criticism and mockery. You need it.

If you can't bear to hear your religious figures criticised – if you think Ratzinger is somehow above the law, or Mohamed should be defended with an axe – a sane society should have only one sentence for you. Tell it to the judge.


What I don't understand is, how come they don't hassle the current Pope, Joseph Ratzinger, about his letters to the churches to cover up the child-molesting!? How is it, that they seem to overlook that and just let him be Pope!? (If they did "urge" him and seriously wanted to call him out on it, then he wouldn't be pope for much longer)

Why can't they gather the public on a huge square, and on stage show them what his "holiness", their leader, was up to a few years ago!?

Why can't they just destroy him, publicly humiliate (like they should do with all of them)and excommunicate him!?

But, I guess the blind, naive public would just believe that "the pope was possessed by evil."



An excellent article, very direct, thorough, and merciless. Just the way it should be. :clap:

Is this article going to be out in different languages, I wonder. It would be good for those on the web who don't know English in Europe, they could see the pope for what he is and the church for what it is.
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Re: The Pope, the Prophet, and the religious support for evi

#3  Postby Roger Cooke » Mar 20, 2010 4:50 pm

Very good. Again, Hitchens and Dawkins are doing yeoman service in keeping the pressure on over this matter.]

One sentence stands out in this article:


Since it was leaked, Ratzinger claims – bizarrely – that these requirements didn't prevent bishops from approaching the police.


Not only Ratzinger claims this. The claim is being made on this board by a poster on another thread. What's happening is that, even though the documents refer only to canon law (so to that extent, Ratzinger is right), the unspoken major premise on which he and all the other bishops acted for decades was that canon law supersedes civil law. The Church has always done this, ignoring civil law when it was possible or convenient to do so.

I find it interesting that Bertolt Brecht wrote about such issues in the early days of National Socialism. One of the Nazi propaganda points against the Church was precisely this matter of sexual abuse. While one hesitates to agree with the Nazis about anything, on this one point perhaps they were right, though not in the conclusions they drew from it.
"If it is a Miracle, any sort of evidence will answer, but if it is a Fact, proof is necessary" -- Mark Twain
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Re: The Pope, the Prophet, and the religious support for evi

#4  Postby MattHunX » Mar 20, 2010 4:55 pm

Roger Cooke wrote:Very good. Again, Hitchens and Dawkins are doing yeoman service in keeping the pressure on over this matter.]

One sentence stands out in this article:


Since it was leaked, Ratzinger claims – bizarrely – that these requirements didn't prevent bishops from approaching the police.


Not only Ratzinger claims this. The claim is being made on this board by a poster on another thread. What's happening is that, even though the documents refer only to canon law (so to that extent, Ratzinger is right), the unspoken major premise on which he and all the other bishops acted for decades was that canon law supersedes civil law. The Church has always done this, ignoring civil law when it was possible or convenient to do so.

I find it interesting that Bertolt Brecht wrote about such issues in the early days of National Socialism. One of the Nazi propaganda points against the Church was precisely this matter of sexual abuse. While one hesitates to agree with the Nazis about anything, on this one point perhaps they were right, though not in the conclusions they drew from it.


Well, you all now what I would do to nazis/neo-nazis. But, I hate to admit, that from a certain angle they had a lot more brains than the church does to this day. And I would go as far as to say, with regard to the Holocaust and all, nazis had a bit more decency than the church does to this day. Well, the church did more killing throughout the span of it's history than the nazis too.
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Re: The Pope, the Prophet, and the religious support for evi

#5  Postby Roger Cooke » Mar 20, 2010 4:58 pm

Perhaps a bit outdated since the scandals began to break in Germany, this article is only ten months old, and it already seems tame and restrained in its criticism:

http://enlightenedcatholicism-colkoch.blogspot.com/2009/05/fr-thomas-doyle-issues-challenge.html
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Re: The Pope, the Prophet, and the religious support for evi

#6  Postby MattHunX » Mar 20, 2010 5:07 pm

Roger Cooke wrote:Perhaps a bit outdated since the scandals began to break in Germany, this article is only ten months old, and it already seems tame and restrained in its criticism:

http://enlightenedcatholicism-colkoch.blogspot.com/2009/05/fr-thomas-doyle-issues-challenge.html


Read it! Thanks! :cheers:

Naturally, the religious side will say that their religion have gotten distorted and twisted through the course of history and that the current leaders seemingly only use it to benefit (immunity to criticism and you know the rest...) themselves. Well, it was created by men, that's what it was made for in the first place.

Note the name Tom Doyle in both articles.
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Re: The Pope, the Prophet, and the religious support for evi

#7  Postby Roger Cooke » Mar 20, 2010 6:07 pm

MattHunX wrote:
Roger Cooke wrote:Very good. Again, Hitchens and Dawkins are doing yeoman service in keeping the pressure on over this matter.]

One sentence stands out in this article:


Since it was leaked, Ratzinger claims – bizarrely – that these requirements didn't prevent bishops from approaching the police.


Not only Ratzinger claims this. The claim is being made on this board by a poster on another thread. What's happening is that, even though the documents refer only to canon law (so to that extent, Ratzinger is right), the unspoken major premise on which he and all the other bishops acted for decades was that canon law supersedes civil law. The Church has always done this, ignoring civil law when it was possible or convenient to do so.

I find it interesting that Bertolt Brecht wrote about such issues in the early days of National Socialism. One of the Nazi propaganda points against the Church was precisely this matter of sexual abuse. While one hesitates to agree with the Nazis about anything, on this one point perhaps they were right, though not in the conclusions they drew from it.


Well, you all now what I would do to nazis/neo-nazis. But, I hate to admit, that from a certain angle they had a lot more brains than the church does to this day. And I would go as far as to say, with regard to the Holocaust and all, nazis had a bit more decency than the church does to this day. Well, the church did more killing throughout the span of it's history than the nazis too.



What Brecht wrote might be of some interest here. It makes me wonder if this was breaking already in the 1930s, but the Church managed to escape from it through the greater horror of World War II. This is from Fear and Misery of the Third Reich (Furcht und Elend des Dritten Reiches), written in the mid-to-late 1930s. This is a couple in Köln, whose son belongs to the Hitler Youth, and runs off to denounce his parents to his Gruppenführer at the end of this scene. Here's the German, followed by a translation:


Der Mann. Wenn diese Berichte über die Priesterprozesse nicht aufhören, werde ich die Zeitung überhaupt abbestellen.

Die Frau. Und welche willst du abonnieren? Es steht doch in allen.

Der Mann. Wenn in allen Zeitungen solche Schweinereien stehen, dann werde ich eben keine Zeitung mehr lesen. Weniger wissen werde ich dann auch nicht, was auf der Welt los ist.

Die Frau. Es ist nicht so schlecht, wenn sie ausräumen.

Der Mann. Ausräumen! Das ist doch alles nur Politik.

Die Frau. Jedenfalls geht es uns nichts an, schließlich sind wir evangelisch.

Der Mann. Für das Volk ist das nicht gleichgültig, wenn es nicht mehr an eine Sakristei denken kann, ohne an diese Scheußlichkeiten zu denken.



Husband. If these reports about priest trials don’t stop, I’m going to cancel the newspaper.

Wife. And which one do you want to subscribe to? It’s in all of them.

Husband. If such filth is in all of them, then I won’t read any newspaper at all. I won’t know any less about what’s happening in the world.

Wife. It’s not such a bad thing if they are cleaning it up.

Husband. Cleaning it up! That’s all just politics.

Wife. But it doesn’t affect us anyway. We’re Lutherans, after all.

Husband. It makes a difference to people if they can no longer think about a sacristy without thinking about such abominations.
"If it is a Miracle, any sort of evidence will answer, but if it is a Fact, proof is necessary" -- Mark Twain
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Re: The Pope, the Prophet, and the religious support for evi

#8  Postby MattHunX » Mar 20, 2010 6:17 pm

Roger Cooke wrote:What Brecht wrote might be of some interest here. It makes me wonder if this was breaking already in the 1930s, but the Church managed to escape from it through the greater horror of World War II. This is from Fear and Misery of the Third Reich (Furcht und Elend des Dritten Reiches), written in the mid-to-late 1930s. This is a couple in Köln, whose son belongs to the Hitler Youth, and runs off to denounce his parents to his Gruppenführer at the end of this scene. Here's the German, followed by a translation:


Der Mann. Wenn diese Berichte über die Priesterprozesse nicht aufhören, werde ich die Zeitung überhaupt abbestellen.

Die Frau. Und welche willst du abonnieren? Es steht doch in allen.

Der Mann. Wenn in allen Zeitungen solche Schweinerein stehen, dann werde ich eben keine Zeitung mehr lesen. Weniger wissen werde ich dann auch nicht, was auf der Welt los ist.

Die Frau. Es ist nicht so schlecht, wenn sie ausräumen.

Der Mann. Ausräumen! Das ist doch alles nur Politik.

Die Frau. Jedenfalls geht es uns nichts an, schließlich sind wir evangelisch.

Der Mann. Für das Volk ist das nicht gleichgültig, wenn es nicht mehr an eine Sakristei denken kann, ohne an diese Scheußlichkeiten zu denken.



Husband. If these reports about priest trials don’t stop, I’m going to cancel the newspaper.

Wife. And which one do you want to subscribe to? It’s in all of them.

Husband. If such filth is in all of them, then I won’t read any newspaper at all. I won’t know any less about what’s happening in the world.

Wife. It’s not such a bad thing if they are cleaning it up.

Husband. Cleaning it up! That’s all just politics.

Wife. But it doesn’t affect us anyway. We’re Lutherans, after all.

Husband. It makes a difference to people if they can no longer think about a sacristy without thinking about such abominations.


Have any of you ever wondered what's in the Vatican, apart from golden candle-holders and the like, from the proceedings of which they could feed villages. Why they don't allow people in, as far as I know. And what documents, centuries old, they have in their, kept secret, more skeletons in the closet? :think:
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Re: The Pope, the Prophet, and the religious support for evi

#9  Postby Roger Cooke » Mar 20, 2010 6:53 pm

MattHunX wrote:

Have any of you ever wondered what's in the Vatican, apart from golden candle-holders and the like, from the proceedings of which they could feed villages. Why they don't allow people in, as far as I know. And what documents, centuries old, they have in their, kept secret, more skeletons in the closet? :think:


Well, since the Balducci scandal, we've been getting a little glimpse in there.

I was a Catholic 50 years ago, the era of the great American Cardinals: Francis Spellman in New York and Richard Cushing (who did JFK's funeral) in Boston. There were rumors that either Spellman or his successor Terrence Cooke (no relation to me) kept a gunsel. I was never able to find out if those rumors were true. It was fairly well known that Cushing was a "bottle baby" and it was necessary to keep him out of the public eye when he had a load of corn on board.
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Re: The Pope, the Prophet, and the religious support for evi

#10  Postby katja z » Mar 20, 2010 7:51 pm

MattHunX wrote:What I don't understand is, how come they don't hassle the current Pope, Joseph Ratzinger, about his letters to the churches to cover up the child-molesting!? How is it, that they seem to overlook that and just let him be Pope!? (If they did "urge" him and seriously wanted to call him out on it, then he wouldn't be pope for much longer)


AFAIK, there's no way for to remove a Pope from his position (other than by assassination, that is). The problem is that as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, he's the ultimate authority on Earth. We're probably stuck with him, like it or not, but the delicious irony is that the Church too is stuck with him as formal leader :evilgrin:

In a way, his current attitude will do much to prevent child abuse by priests in the future, since he's turning a lot of people against the Catholic Church :grin:
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Re: The Pope, the Prophet, and the religious support for evi

#11  Postby MattHunX » Mar 20, 2010 8:31 pm

katja z wrote:
MattHunX wrote:What I don't understand is, how come they don't hassle the current Pope, Joseph Ratzinger, about his letters to the churches to cover up the child-molesting!? How is it, that they seem to overlook that and just let him be Pope!? (If they did "urge" him and seriously wanted to call him out on it, then he wouldn't be pope for much longer)


AFAIK, there's no way for to remove a Pope from his position (other than by assassination, that is). The problem is that as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, he's the ultimate authority on Earth. We're probably stuck with him, like it or not, but the delicious irony is that the Church too is stuck with him as formal leader :evilgrin:

In a way, his current attitude will do much to prevent child abuse by priests in the future, since he's turning a lot of people against the Catholic Church :grin:


(other than by assassination, that is)


Not to hit on you or anything, cause I'm not interested in that stuff, yet...but...I'm really starting to like you. :cheers:
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Re: The Pope, the Prophet, and the religious support for evi

#12  Postby katja z » Mar 20, 2010 9:15 pm

MattHunX wrote:
(other than by assassination, that is)


Not to hit on you or anything, cause I'm not interested in that stuff, yet...but...I'm really starting to like you. :cheers:


'cos of my murderous tendencies? :naughty2:
:grin: :drunk:
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Re: The Pope, the Prophet, and the religious support for evi

#13  Postby MattHunX » Mar 20, 2010 9:40 pm

katja z wrote:
MattHunX wrote:
(other than by assassination, that is)


Not to hit on you or anything, cause I'm not interested in that stuff, yet...but...I'm really starting to like you. :cheers:


'cos of my murderous tendencies? :naughty2:
:grin: :drunk:


Precisely. It always makes me wonder, why OH WHY!...can't someone, somehow assassinate him? Is it really asking to much? He can barely move, he's not protected by bullet proof glass or armor 24/7. Is it so hard to get one shot in, in the right place?

There is a question in an online test called Dante's Sin & Impurity test:

Do you think that some people just deserve to die: my answer, YES.
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Re: The Pope, the Prophet, and the religious support for evi

#14  Postby katja z » Mar 20, 2010 9:51 pm

MattHunX wrote:Precisely. It always makes me wonder, why OH WHY!...can't someone, somehow assassinate him? Is it really asking to much? He can barely move, he's not protected by bullet proof glass or armor 24/7. Is it so hard to get one shot in, in the right place?

They would have Our Lady of Fátima to reckon with. Oh, wait, that was the last one ... :crazy:
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Re: The Pope, the Prophet, and the religious support for evi

#15  Postby enkidu » Mar 20, 2010 10:59 pm


I was a Catholic 50 years ago, the era of the great American Cardinals: Francis Spellman in New York and Richard Cushing (who did JFK's funeral) in Boston. There were rumors that either Spellman or his successor Terrence Cooke (no relation to me) kept a gunsel. I was never able to find out if those rumors were true. It was fairly well known that Cushing was a "bottle baby" and it was necessary to keep him out of the public eye when he had a load of corn on board.


Sorry, but my memory isn't up to par right now - as to Spellman I definitely remember an internet discussion about him, including a photo of Spellman w/boy toy (a ballet dancer?) and Hoover with hubby at a N.Y. night club. He was that type of rich, obnoxious, totally-in-denial type of homosexual (I would not grant them the honor of calling them gay); along with the likes of Roy Cohn, they could hound other gays as a perverted payment for the permission to buy sex. A tradition continuing unto this day amongst politicians and hierophants of a certain stripe.
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