The Restorationist Joseph Smith Sects

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Re: The Restorationist Joseph Smith Sects

#21  Postby Scot Dutchy » May 13, 2016 4:36 pm

NamelessFaceless wrote:
ScholasticSpastic wrote:
NamelessFaceless wrote:I've read several books on Mormonism and I'm currently reading the Book of Mormon, as well as the Doctrines and Covenants.

:shock: Let me know if you can get through that. I've tried several times and it's straight to snoozeville each attempt. I've learned to appreciate religions with shorter seminal documents.


It's actually a lot more fun than the Koran. The Koran was just one long fire & brimstone sermon, while the BoM is just full of quirky new stories. The D&C is even kind of fun, now that I've read a lot of the history of Joseph Smith and the church, and seeing how Smith's prophecies seem to appear on an as-needed basis. :lol:


Koran fun :shock:

A slight improvement on that was Mein Kampf.
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Re: The Restorationist Joseph Smith Sects

#22  Postby duvduv » May 15, 2016 8:06 pm

I have gotten through about half of Grant Palmer's very interesting book. I frankly do not easily understand how Mormons or other Smithians can believe that this man had any spiritual powers when he totally made up his so-called translation of the so-called Books of Abraham and Joseph, and then he and his friends resorted to using Ethan Smith's View of the Hebrews and Spaulding's book as the backdrop for the Book of Mormon. And of course we know how the so-called gold plates were not even used when Smith put his face in his hat and read out the book from the "seer stones" that he had used as part of his failed career as a treasure hunter. I mean, where do believers draw the line?
And the fact that all the so-called witnesses of the gold plates only claimed to have "seen" them spiritually?
And the so-called idea that he was an imperfect prophet is a true technique for allowing all the splinter groups who rejected this or that of Joseph Smith's ever-changing ideas. Heck, there were even Latter Day Saints who rejected Smith entirely as a prophet. So what's left? The image provided by Brigham Young or Joseph Smith III?
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Re: The Restorationist Joseph Smith Sects

#23  Postby laklak » May 15, 2016 8:25 pm

Humans are gullible.
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The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
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Re: The Restorationist Joseph Smith Sects

#24  Postby crank » May 15, 2016 8:27 pm

Do you know of any religions that aren't chock full of the batty? In our lifetimes, we've seen a number of the 'end of the world' types, how many still believed when the first date went by and the guy came up with a second? The mind is a terrible thing to lay waste to with insanities and inanities, but it's an all too willing host.
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Re: The Restorationist Joseph Smith Sects

#25  Postby duvduv » May 15, 2016 8:42 pm

The difference is this whole thing is well documented from less than 200 years ago, and all the arguments can be clearly presented and discussed.
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Re: The Restorationist Joseph Smith Sects

#26  Postby laklak » May 15, 2016 9:14 pm

Scientology is much younger than that, and it's even batshit crazier. I mean c'mon, intergalactic DC-8s? Invisible aliens attached to your spinal cord? Measuring the state of your "soul" with a fucking gussied up ohmmeter? It's ludicrous, but lucrative.

People are fools, for the most part. You might think that at my rapidly advancing age I'd be inured to human stupidity, but not a day goes by that I'm not amazed anew. Just a quick ramble through my morning facebook feed is enough to send me back to bed with a bottle of cheap wine.

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Re: The Restorationist Joseph Smith Sects

#27  Postby crank » May 15, 2016 10:58 pm

An often overlooked 'religion' is the cargo cult. They have the essentials of religion, with some sadly almost childlike view of the world, and you can see the workings of belief formation, how quickly and deeply crazy delusions form. You can see how ignorance of science and basic modern life leads to guys performing the silliest of rituals. Modern religions aren't much more than cargo-cults and a lot of time to accrete ever more sophisticated nonsense.
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Re: The Restorationist Joseph Smith Sects

#28  Postby duvduv » May 15, 2016 11:03 pm

I would really prefer to discuss this subject substantively rather than simply shooting the breeze.

It is also worth noting as discussed in the book the way the BoM reflects themes and styles of the evangelical Methodist preachers and revivals that Smith was certainly familiar with from his background.
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Re: The Restorationist Joseph Smith Sects

#29  Postby duvduv » May 25, 2016 7:29 pm

Hey folks, it's been over a week. I have been reading more in Palmer's book and other material. I am persuaded that neither Joseph Smith nor any of his immediate witness friends was capable of writing such a book as the Book of Mormon. Since it is known that Martin Harris was involved in mortgaging his property to publish it, it is virtually certain that they got the money together to employ one or more ghost writers to put the book together. And the fact that neither David Whitmer nor Martin Harris or the other immediate cohorts ever spilled the beans about the book suggests very strongly that they did not want to end up like Joseph or his brother Hyrum at the end of a bullet or a lynch mob's gallows. And they surely wanted to protect their own families from revenge, not to mention that of Smith himself.

The theatric presentation about putting his head in a hat with a seer stone while Martin Harris wrote down what he said is bunk and pure myth. Even as theatrics it never took place, period. And of course no gold plates either. And once thousands of people were believing in the BoM and fighting each other over it, there was no way that the people who knew about the composition in the mid 1800s would say anything about it if they wanted to preserve their necks.

Since this became a popular religion that started less than 200 years ago, one can only imagine how Americans moving from the age of the Second Great Awakening and fantasies about America should not have realized that this was all smoke and mirrors. I have met Mormons, and I think they are very nice people. But it is a shame that they haven't been able to move ahead. That would go also for those who branched off into the Reorganized LDS, the Temple Lot, the Church of Jesus Christ, etc. etc.
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Re: The Restorationist Joseph Smith Sects

#30  Postby duvduv » May 25, 2016 7:38 pm

Many people are not aware how "Mormonism" simply plugged in to a religious fervor called restorationism, and all the various branches that emerged after Smith died had the BoM as the cover for their various interpretations, beliefs about leadership, continued revelation and continued prophecy. It was a movement where association with the newest "revelation" of the BoM allowed all types of people to "prophecy" and speak to God under a pretty respectable format. The reason for all the disputes was probably because they weren't all unified on a single message, and that the BoM was the door to a whole host of new directions. So you had the largest segment follow Brigham Young to Utah, others who followed James Strang, whereby each sect had different views of leadership, the uniqueness or lack of uniqueness of Smith, revelations to subsequent "prophets" after God opened the "door" for the restorationist effort with Joseph himself. So others moved on with his son Joseph III, and other new prophets or ordinary leaders.
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Re: The Restorationist Joseph Smith Sects

#31  Postby duvduv » Jun 06, 2016 6:28 pm

Then there is the question as to whether people who joined the sects revering Joseph Smith and his Book of Mormon joined BECAUSE of that or because they were already in to the "Restorationism" idea of Christianity, and Smith and the BoM simply was a convenient vehicle to promote it? So they came to believe in the idea of the book even more than of Smith himself because it had a certain mystique to it to grant America some part in the overall Christ-oriented scheme of things. This might even explain why certain sects conceived of Smith as an original "prophet" who in February 1834 began to decline and became a false prophet with teachings that he misperceived (i.e. the view of the Temple Lot folks, the Whitmer sect, etc.).
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Re: The Restorationist Joseph Smith Sects

#32  Postby Leucius Charinus » Jun 26, 2016 3:17 am

crank wrote:Do you know of any religions that aren't chock full of the batty? In our lifetimes, we've seen a number of the 'end of the world' types, how many still believed when the first date went by and the guy came up with a second? The mind is a terrible thing to lay waste to with insanities and inanities, but it's an all too willing host.


I think that your final sentence above is echoed in the following from Emperor Julian ....

    Though it has in it nothing divine,
    by making full use of that part of the soul
    which loves fable and is childish and foolish,
    it has induced men to believe
    that the monstrous tale is truth
    .
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

Emperor Julian (362 CE)
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Re: The Restorationist Joseph Smith Sects

#33  Postby duvduv » Dec 19, 2016 11:09 pm

Some followers viewed Joseph Smith as an infallible Prophet (LDS of Utah)
Others viewed him as authentic only for the Book of Mormon (early followers)
Others viewed him as a Fallen Prophet who not only was authentic only for the Book of Mormon, but fell into all human frailties thereafter, and became totally off his rocker.
Others view him more kindly but reject everything of the Brigham Young sect that are said to have originated from Smith, and believed that leadership had to follow Smith's descendants (Community of Christ, formerly the Reorganized LDS).
There are even those who believe in a Masonic conspiracy to kill Smith by Young and others, and that true Mormonism was only from Smith himself.
And others believed the prophet/seer power passed on to other believers such as James Strang.
The comparisons with what happened in Islam are even rather apparent.
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Re: The Restorationist Joseph Smith Sects

#34  Postby The_Metatron » Dec 19, 2016 11:35 pm

Huge numbers of people believe stupid shit. Film at eleven.
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Re: The Restorationist Joseph Smith Sects

#35  Postby duvduv » Dec 21, 2016 12:56 am

Maybe we should just discontinue threads like this on which there is little substantive discussion. I personally don't like forum threads to be transformed into texting or chat rooms. Maybe the moderator has some thoughts about this problem.
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Re: The Restorationist Joseph Smith Sects

#36  Postby The_Metatron » Dec 21, 2016 6:51 pm

duvduv wrote:Maybe we should just discontinue threads like this on which there is little substantive discussion. I personally don't like forum threads to be transformed into texting or chat rooms. Maybe the moderator has some thoughts about this problem.

What's this "we" shit? You can stop making such threads at your leisure. Or, you can carry on. But, you should probably be prepared for the types of response you're getting.

What's the lesson to take home here? Look where you are. You're surrounded by many people who have looked closely at theism in its various forms, and know a fair bit about it. Most have accordingly rejected what they once believed, or never bothered to believe it in the first place. Don't you get the impression that you may be peddling a discussion on a topic that isn't all that interesting to this august body?

Speaking more specifically for myself, I see little point in discussing what religion X does or doesn't believe, or comparing it to religion Y. They are all religions. By very definition, they deal in the wholesale peddling of unprovable and untestable ideas. All of them. There are no exceptions. The details, therefore, have little meaning in that light, don't they?

Of what value is it to know that religion A believes batshit crazy things 1, 2, and 3, and religion B only believes batshit crazy things 2 and 3, then added 4 through 6? What useful thing does knowing that provide? In this example I gave, I hold no value in things 1 all the way through 6 (and beyond). So, why do I care?

Even if I couch this in terms of learning what motivates behaviors, it isn't of much value. The chance of ever changing the minds of the credulous is near zero.

I've read elsewhere on this forum something to the effect of "we may as well be discussing the causes and effects of left-hand spirals versus right-hand spirals found in unicorn horns." Same thing.
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Re: The Restorationist Joseph Smith Sects

#37  Postby duvduv » Dec 21, 2016 11:01 pm

Metatron, why do you even bother to post here or to post at all? Why are you so angry and opinionated?
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Re: The Restorationist Joseph Smith Sects

#38  Postby The_Metatron » Dec 22, 2016 2:40 am

duvduv wrote:Metatron, why do you even bother to post here or to post at all? Why are you so angry and opinionated?

Weren't you just complaining about topics turning into chat rooms?


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Re: The Restorationist Joseph Smith Sects

#39  Postby Fenrir » Dec 22, 2016 2:45 am

Passive aggression ftw!

That'll lern em.
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Re: The Restorationist Joseph Smith Sects

#40  Postby duvduv » Dec 23, 2016 4:49 pm

I'd be interested in knowing the respective ideas from the Mormonist sects trying to legitimize the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.
- The LDS, the CoC (RLDS), the church out of Monongahela, PA, the Temple Lot folks, the Fundamentalists that broke from the LDS and the ones who broke from the RLDS
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