Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

a few examples; discussion invited

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

#41  Postby Byron » Sep 14, 2011 7:02 am

Lion IRC wrote:I think the phenomenon of undesigned coincidences in the Gospels is a great subject for AvT discussion.

So it's proving.

Still don't see why. All these "coincidences" show (if they show anything) is that gospel authors were working from a common set of material. Everyone who isn't a Jesus-myther already accepts that!

To repeat the example I gave over on Ichthus77's blog: say a fiction about Jesus' trial enters the Jesus-tradition around AD 50. By the time the gospels are being authored, post AD 70, unless there's a witness to hand, there's no way the gospel authors can separate that fiction from the authentic material. So they include it.

These "coincidences" do precisely jack to help us sift authentic and inauthentic material.

I dig the phrase "bible-errancy crowd", as if it's a contentious position to suggest that a canon of disparate writings authored over hundreds of years contains flaws! :D
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

#42  Postby MattHunX » Sep 14, 2011 10:21 am

willhud9 wrote:
Byron wrote:
willhud9 wrote:
And you know this, how? There are still scholars who challenge on valid grounds the two-document hypothesis, and many say there are manuscripts early than the earliest Mark manuscript we have. To me it sounds like you are jumping the gun in saying that in those 40 years that there were no writings relating to Jesus. [my bold] There is no evidence to support this assertion.

I haven't made that assertion! As I said earlier, "The gospels incorporated various strands of oral tradition, maybe some proto-gospels composed of a few sayings -- in the G. Thomas format --, and theological fiction invented by the authors." I suspect that there were some proto-gospels doing the rounds, although until one turns up, this can't go beyond informed speculation.


Oh. Oops, that'll learn me for not paying attention. Sorry Byron.


I was beginning to think you meant me, cause my name was quoted also. I did exaggerate, saying there was nothing more than hearsay, at the time. Though, I think it is a fair assumption that even the proto-gospels, as you call them, had to be based on the hearsay and myths the many hundreds of ignorant people were circulating, only earlier on.
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

#43  Postby Moonwatcher » Sep 14, 2011 10:21 pm

Lion IRC wrote:I think the phenomenon of undesigned coincidences in the Gospels is a great subject for AvT discussion.

It's been described as Chinese water torture for bible skeptics insofar as the weight of so many separate (minor) coincidences accumulate - each of which might individually be dismissed - but which gather more and more weight collectively.

The bible-errancy crowd are happy to sift through the Gospels, "straining at gnats" and proposing extraordinary allegations based on (trivial interpretations of) minor details such as whether Jesus’ robe was "scarlet" or "purple". Well, "undersigned coincidences" are in the exact opposite direction and, IMHO, much more credible, persuasive & reasonable.

Thanks Ichthus77 :thumbup:


Yeah you never have responded to the fact that one account has Judas turn down the coins and the other account has him accept them.

You never have responded to the fact that in one account he hangs himself and in the other he was struck down by "God".

This is your straining at gnats, right?

Why do you never address a point like this, Lion? It's not a contradiction, right? But a few people writing during a few decades of each other who may have read what earlier people wrote and added something to it proves something, right?

Why do you never address factual points?

Well, we know why. Nor have we forgotten that gem from another forum where he admitted you weren't really sure of any of this being true.
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

#44  Postby Moonwatcher » Sep 14, 2011 10:32 pm

Lion IRC wrote:The bible does NOT say... "the Earth existed before the sun"

Go back and read it again. It says..."in the beginning God created the heavens AND the earth."

The sun and the Earth are "made of" the same matter/energy/matter/energy......


1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

Overview: God creates heavens and Earth.

Day One specifically : God creates the Earth.
He creates light.
Day One ends.

Day 2: God creates a dome to separate the waters below the sky from those above it.

Day 3: The land (gee the planet Earth?) produces vegetation and so on.

Day 4: Let me guess. The "Greater Light to rule the day" specifically created on this day isn't the sun and the lesser light to rule the night isn't the Moon and the stars aren't the stars, right, Lion? DAY 4.

It states categorically what day each thing was done on. Jesus Christ, how fucking ridiculous can literalist arguments get. Now even what the Bible says isn't what the Bible says.
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

#45  Postby spin » Sep 15, 2011 1:50 am

Ichthus77 wrote:I first heard about these from Professor Tim McGrew:
http://www.wmich.edu/philosophy/index.p ... _interview

Here are a few examples:

(Note: numbers are being skipped on purpose because I am sticking to 'internal' coincidences amongst the Gospels.)

#1: Matthew 26:67-68 Why ask him to tell them who slapped him? Luke 22 They blindfolded him.

Reading the Marcan source 14:65 tells you that Mt left out information. No coincidence.

Ichthus77 wrote:#2: Mark 6:31 Why are many coming and going? John 6:4 The Passover pilgrimage.

The passover pilgrimage was to the temple in Jerusalem not to the top of some mountain.

Ichthus77 wrote:#3: Matthew 8:14-16 Why in the evening? Mark 1:21 Sabbath over at evening (cannot bear burden).

Ummm, Mt uses Mk as its principal source. :roll:

Ichthus77 wrote:#4: Luke 9:36 Why did they keep silent? Mark 9:9 Jesus told them to tell no one (most consistently disobeyed command, lol).

Yeah, synoptic gospel Lk uses Mk as its principal source. :roll:

Ichthus77 wrote:#5: John 6:5 Why pick Philip? Luke 9 The setting of the miracle is Bethsaida, Philip’s “hometown” (John 1:44).

Either this feeding took place in Bethsaida or it took place on a mountain, not both. There is no coincidence here, merely your active imagination.

Ichthus77 wrote:#7: John 21:15 Why ask “…more than these?” Matthew 26:33 “Though they all fall away…I will never fall away.” In John 21 Peter is done boasting and just says “Lord, you know that I love you.” Beautiful!

This is pure eisegesis.

Ichthus77 wrote:#8: Luke 23:1-4 Why Pilate find no guilt in Jesus? John 18:28- “My kingdom is not of this world.”
Also, John never mentions the charge against him, but Luke fills in the detail.

More eisegesis: these are two accounts that share little in common. You are merely choosing to fulfill your presuppositions.

Ichthus77 wrote:#10: Matthew 14:1-2 Why is Herod speaking about this to his servants? Luke 8:3 Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod’s household manager/steward. Herod knows that if he’s got questions about Jesus, talk to his Christian servants. Acts 13:1 Manaen had been brought up with Herod the Tetrarch.

Again, simple conjecture: "Herod knows that if he’s got questions about Jesus, talk to his Christian servants." You have no way of knowing what Herod knew, ie you are bullshitting.

Ichthus77 wrote:#11: Mark 14:57-58 Mark 15 People mock him for saying he would destroy the temple. He never says that in Mark. John 2:18-19 Jesus says, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

It is sufficient that Jesus prophesied the temple's destruction (13:2) for him to have been mistaken as saying he would destroy the temple.

Ichthus77 wrote:These are just examples of ‘internal’ undesigned coincidences in the Gospels.

I'm glad to see that you've convinced yourself. However, this material has little probative value other than its effect on you.
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

#46  Postby MattHunX » Sep 15, 2011 6:45 am

Moonwatcher wrote:
Lion IRC wrote:The bible does NOT say... "the Earth existed before the sun"

Go back and read it again. It says..."in the beginning God created the heavens AND the earth."

The sun and the Earth are "made of" the same matter/energy/matter/energy......


1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

Overview: God creates heavens and Earth.

Day One specifically : God creates the Earth.
He creates light.
Day One ends.

Day 2: God creates a dome to separate the waters below the sky from those above it.

Day 3: The land (gee the planet Earth?) produces vegetation and so on.

Day 4: Let me guess. The "Greater Light to rule the day" specifically created on this day isn't the sun and the lesser light to rule the night isn't the Moon and the stars aren't the stars, right, Lion? DAY 4.

It states categorically what day each thing was done on. Jesus Christ, how fucking ridiculous can literalist arguments get. Now even what the Bible says isn't what the Bible says.


Well, damn! If you fellows keep this up, I might just memorize this drivel. :)

My usual nitpicking in bold red. The folks who compiled the good book, and whose experience and narrow-minded worldview is reflected in it, quite obviously didn't know that the "greater light" was also one of billions and billions of "stars". Otherwise they wouldn't have written their divinely inspired, or (holy-)ghost-written holy book as such, that it clearly makes a distinction between the "greater light" and the "stars".

This is just another error, within and error, that Lion has repeatedly failed to acknowledge/accept. He certainly addressed the issue, though, completely unfazed, unshaken in his fidelity to the book, the gospel writers, and to jesus. As a good christian should be. :roll:
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

#47  Postby Moonwatcher » Sep 15, 2011 6:32 pm

MattHunX wrote:
Moonwatcher wrote:
Lion IRC wrote:The bible does NOT say... "the Earth existed before the sun"

Go back and read it again. It says..."in the beginning God created the heavens AND the earth."

The sun and the Earth are "made of" the same matter/energy/matter/energy......


1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

Overview: God creates heavens and Earth.

Day One specifically : God creates the Earth.
He creates light.
Day One ends.

Day 2: God creates a dome to separate the waters below the sky from those above it.

Day 3: The land (gee the planet Earth?) produces vegetation and so on.

Day 4: Let me guess. The "Greater Light to rule the day" specifically created on this day isn't the sun and the lesser light to rule the night isn't the Moon and the stars aren't the stars, right, Lion? DAY 4.

It states categorically what day each thing was done on. Jesus Christ, how fucking ridiculous can literalist arguments get. Now even what the Bible says isn't what the Bible says.


Well, damn! If you fellows keep this up, I might just memorize this drivel. :)

My usual nitpicking in bold red. The folks who compiled the good book, and whose experience and narrow-minded worldview is reflected in it, quite obviously didn't know that the "greater light" was also one of billions and billions of "stars". Otherwise they wouldn't have written their divinely inspired, or (holy-)ghost-written holy book as such, that it clearly makes a distinction between the "greater light" and the "stars".

This is just another error, within and error, that Lion has repeatedly failed to acknowledge/accept. He certainly addressed the issue, though, completely unfazed, unshaken in his fidelity to the book, the gospel writers, and to jesus. As a good christian should be. :roll:


If he follows his usual pattern, he's done with this thread. If not, we can post his statement and what the Bible actually says over and over. He's well known for creating a god that doesn't even resemble the one in the Bible and claiming it is the biblical god. Now he's creating his own bible.
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

#48  Postby Nebogipfel » Sep 15, 2011 7:47 pm

Have we done the bit about the Moon not actually emitting any light?
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

#49  Postby MattHunX » Sep 15, 2011 8:14 pm

Nebogipfel wrote:Have we done the bit about the Moon not actually emitting any light?

Repeatedly. :smug:
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

#50  Postby Lion IRC » Sep 16, 2011 1:56 am

FYI - These two allegations by Moonwatcher are false.

"Yeah you never have responded to the fact that one account has Judas turn down the coins and the other account has him accept them."

"You never have responded to the fact that in one account he hangs himself and in the other he was struck down by "God".
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

#51  Postby ElDiablo » Sep 16, 2011 5:15 am

Nebogipfel wrote:Have we done the bit about the Moon not actually emitting any light?

Yes. You have to remember close enough is good enough for some theists like Lion.
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

#52  Postby Ihavenofingerprints » Sep 16, 2011 6:25 am

Sorry for starting that whole argument again (on the last page). It is just when I saw Lion say "bible errancy crowd", i immediately thought "why give a label to people with functioning brain cells?"
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

#53  Postby spin » Sep 16, 2011 6:41 am

Moonwatcher wrote:Overview: God creates heavens and Earth.

Day One specifically : God creates the Earth.

This is really not correct. The problem arises because of the inaccurately translated first verse of Genesis. It should be something literally like

    In the beginning of god's creating the heavens and the earth...
See the NRSV:

    In the beginning when god created the heavens and the earth...
or the NJPS:

    When god began to create the heavens and the earth...
(See also Youngs.)

What follows in v.2 are the starting conditions. Christian translators usually assume creatio ex nihilo and provide an apologetic translation. What this implies is that the first creative act is...

Moonwatcher wrote:He creates light.
Day One ends.

Day 2: God creates a dome to separate the waters below the sky from those above it.

Day 3: The land ... produces vegetation and so on.

Day 4: The "Greater Light to rule the day" specifically created on this day ....

Each day begins and ends the same way:

    God said [let there be]... a [first/second/...] day.

Once you understand that the structure of Gen 1 is much clearer and the two halves of the creation can be seen to be symmetrical: compare days 1-3 with days 4-6 and see the results of what happened each day.
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

#54  Postby z8000783 » Sep 16, 2011 7:08 am

Lion IRC wrote:FYI - These two allegations by Moonwatcher are false.

"Yeah you never have responded to the fact that one account has Judas turn down the coins and the other account has him accept them."

"You never have responded to the fact that in one account he hangs himself and in the other he was struck down by "God".

Could you remind us what your responses were please, or post a link?

Thanks

John
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

#55  Postby Moonwatcher » Sep 16, 2011 9:41 pm

spin wrote:
Moonwatcher wrote:Overview: God creates heavens and Earth.

Day One specifically : God creates the Earth.

This is really not correct. The problem arises because of the inaccurately translated first verse of Genesis. It should be something literally like

    In the beginning of god's creating the heavens and the earth...
See the NRSV:

    In the beginning when god created the heavens and the earth...
or the NJPS:

    When god began to create the heavens and the earth...
(See also Youngs.)

What follows in v.2 are the starting conditions. Christian translators usually assume creatio ex nihilo and provide an apologetic translation. What this implies is that the first creative act is...

Moonwatcher wrote:He creates light.
Day One ends.

Day 2: God creates a dome to separate the waters below the sky from those above it.

Day 3: The land ... produces vegetation and so on.

Day 4: The "Greater Light to rule the day" specifically created on this day ....

Each day begins and ends the same way:

    God said [let there be]... a [first/second/...] day.

Once you understand that the structure of Gen 1 is much clearer and the two halves of the creation can be seen to be symmetrical: compare days 1-3 with days 4-6 and see the results of what happened each day.


Other than the first sentence being an overview, not seeing it. This Young translation still cannot avoid the fact that events are locked into a daily basis with specific events each day.
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

#56  Postby Moonwatcher » Sep 16, 2011 9:51 pm

z8000783 wrote:
Lion IRC wrote:FYI - These two allegations by Moonwatcher are false.

"Yeah you never have responded to the fact that one account has Judas turn down the coins and the other account has him accept them."

"You never have responded to the fact that in one account he hangs himself and in the other he was struck down by "God".

Could you remind us what your responses were please, or post a link?

Thanks

John


Unless I completely missed it, he never responded. I think one time he generally responded to the postings of a bunch of people who pointed out numerous blatant contradictions with some waving of the hand reference to straining at gnats.
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

#57  Postby spin » Sep 17, 2011 8:35 am

Moonwatcher wrote:Other than the first sentence being an overview, not seeing it. This Young translation still cannot avoid the fact that events are locked into a daily basis with specific events each day.

I'm not criticizing you on the issue, just clarifying. The first two verses of Genesis 1 regard the state of the cosmos at creation. Once you understand that the structure of the chapter is quite clear. (And yes, these are 24 hour days, with mornings and evenings, otherwise the installation of the sabbath would be meaningless.) Notice also on the first day light came into being and on the fourth, the sun, moon and starts were placed there to inhabit the light. There is no meaningful way to read this material as coincident with science.
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

#58  Postby Moonwatcher » Sep 17, 2011 12:21 pm

spin wrote:
Moonwatcher wrote:Other than the first sentence being an overview, not seeing it. This Young translation still cannot avoid the fact that events are locked into a daily basis with specific events each day.

I'm not criticizing you on the issue, just clarifying. The first two verses of Genesis 1 regard the state of the cosmos at creation. Once you understand that the structure of the chapter is quite clear. (And yes, these are 24 hour days, with mornings and evenings, otherwise the installation of the sabbath would be meaningless.) Notice also on the first day light came into being and on the fourth, the sun, moon and starts were placed there to inhabit the light. There is no meaningful way to read this material as coincident with science.


Ah, okay, I get what you're saying. I took the first verse to be an overview. You're just saying it's the first two verses.

Oh yes, I caught the thing about light existing before the Sun, the Moon and the other things that the writer doesn't realize are other suns farther away. There were just so many absurdities to the previous poster's claims about what the story did or didn't say that I didn't get to all the absurdities of the chapter.

Agreed, there is no way to read this as consistent with science. But remember the credo of the opposition, "When reality and doctrine disagree..."
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

#59  Postby MattHunX » Sep 17, 2011 12:39 pm

spin wrote:
Moonwatcher wrote:Other than the first sentence being an overview, not seeing it. This Young translation still cannot avoid the fact that events are locked into a daily basis with specific events each day.

I'm not criticizing you on the issue, just clarifying. The first two verses of Genesis 1 regard the state of the cosmos at creation. Once you understand that the structure of the chapter is quite clear. (And yes, these are 24 hour days, with mornings and evenings, otherwise the installation of the sabbath would be meaningless.) Notice also on the first day light came into being and on the fourth, the sun, moon and starts were placed there to inhabit the light. There is no meaningful way to read this material as coincident with science.


Ah, yes. There's that, too. :cheers:
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

#60  Postby Moonwatcher » Sep 17, 2011 5:15 pm

MattHunX wrote:
spin wrote:
Moonwatcher wrote:Other than the first sentence being an overview, not seeing it. This Young translation still cannot avoid the fact that events are locked into a daily basis with specific events each day.

I'm not criticizing you on the issue, just clarifying. The first two verses of Genesis 1 regard the state of the cosmos at creation. Once you understand that the structure of the chapter is quite clear. (And yes, these are 24 hour days, with mornings and evenings, otherwise the installation of the sabbath would be meaningless.) Notice also on the first day light came into being and on the fourth, the sun, moon and starts were placed there to inhabit the light. There is no meaningful way to read this material as coincident with science.


Ah, yes. There's that, too. :cheers:


Yes and note Lion has utterly ignored that the Bible blatantly has the Earth created days before the Sun despite his out of context verse and undoubtedly knowing what it said in the day to day description.
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