Vatican video reaching out to women criticized.

Because eyelashes?

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

Moderators: Blip, DarthHelmet86

Re: Vatican video reaching out to women criticized.

#41  Postby John Platko » Dec 30, 2014 2:17 pm

Darwinsbulldog wrote:So Jesus can become a cracker, or a cracker can become Jesus, but women cannot be ordained. Yup, that makes sense! :doh:


And they don't even use metaphysics to explain it. Jesus didn't set a precedent for women to be ordained so it's like, what's a Church to do?


Obviously the Vatican is not content with just male nutters, but wants females to be nuts also. Actually, the rot set in with all Abrahamic religions by allowing females to be incubators. This is why the god-magic no longer works. Getting away from "Do not suffer a women witch to live" was when the rot set in. Now they have to treat women as almost human beings, or some facsimile thereof. Of course this humanity myth is just that, as even men were the sheep of god. Well, who knew? If one is searching for logic, reason or evidence, one does not find it in religion.


There's is plenty of logic, reason, and evidence in religion if one looks hard enough to find it- but perhaps not so much in formal Vatican documents.
I like to imagine ...
User avatar
John Platko
 
Name: John Platko
Posts: 9411
Male

Country: US
United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Vatican video reaching out to women criticized.

#42  Postby John Platko » Dec 30, 2014 2:21 pm

Nebogipfel wrote:
John Platko wrote:
Onyx8 wrote:Jesus was a gurrrlll! Oh noes.



It sounds to more like: was a he, now with the body of a she - it must be one of those metaphysical things.


Doesn't the church regard itself as the bride of Christ?


Why yes it does.

From: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... 23a9p2.htm

The Church is the Bride of Christ

796 The unity of Christ and the Church, head and members of one Body, also implies the distinction of the two within a personal relationship. This aspect is often expressed by the image of bridegroom and bride. The theme of Christ as Bridegroom of the Church was prepared for by the prophets and announced by John the Baptist.234 The Lord referred to himself as the "bridegroom."235 The Apostle speaks of the whole Church and of each of the faithful, members of his Body, as a bride "betrothed" to Christ the Lord so as to become but one spirit with him.236 The Church is the spotless bride of the spotless Lamb.237 "Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her."238 He has joined her with himself in an everlasting covenant and never stops caring for her as for his own body:239


This is the whole Christ, head and body, one formed from many . . . whether the head or members speak, it is Christ who speaks. He speaks in his role as the head (ex persona capitis) and in his role as body (ex persona corporis). What does this mean? "The two will become one flesh. This is a great mystery, and I am applying it to Christ and the Church."240 And the Lord himself says in the Gospel: "So they are no longer two, but one flesh."241 They are, in fact, two different persons, yet they are one in the conjugal union, . . . as head, he calls himself the bridegroom, as body, he calls himself "bride."242
I like to imagine ...
User avatar
John Platko
 
Name: John Platko
Posts: 9411
Male

Country: US
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Vatican video reaching out to women criticized.

#43  Postby John Platko » Dec 30, 2014 2:34 pm

Nebogipfel wrote:
Animavore wrote:
John Platko wrote:
Animavore wrote:The Church have always been hypocritical. Changing the rules is not a problem to them. There are a number of priests in Ireland of late talking about changing the roles of women and even things like the stance on homosexuality and allowing priests marry.


Do you have any examples of the Church changing its position on doctrine?

Sure, it used to be their teaching that all non-Catholics will go to hell. Not any more.


Benedict XVI abolished Limbo.


That doesn't count! :nono:

From: http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Vatican_abolishes_Limbo
The Church has never made limbo an official doctrine but most Catholics believe in it.


But after sleeping on this:

The Church "does not consider herself authorized to admit women to priestly ordination."
From: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_ ... is_en.html


Perhaps if the Holy Spirit whispers into Pope Francis ear, "I now authorize the Church to ordain woman." the problem will be solved, Church doctrine won't change but rather simply develop.
I like to imagine ...
User avatar
John Platko
 
Name: John Platko
Posts: 9411
Male

Country: US
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Vatican video reaching out to women criticized.

#44  Postby John Platko » Dec 30, 2014 2:46 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Nebogipfel wrote:
Animavore wrote:
John Platko wrote:

Do you have any examples of the Church changing its position on doctrine?

Sure, it used to be their teaching that all non-Catholics will go to hell. Not any more.


Benedict XVI abolished Limbo.


I wonder what happened to all those unbaptised babies in limbo.


http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... ts_en.html

The International Theological Commission has studied the question of the fate of un-baptised infants, bearing in mind the principle of the “hierarchy of truths” and the other theological principles of the universal salvific will of God, the unicity and insuperability of the mediation of Christ, the sacramentality of the Church in the order of salvation, and the reality of Original Sin. In the contemporary context of cultural relativism and religious pluralism the number of non-baptized infants has grown considerably, and therefore the reflection on the possibility of salvation for these infants has become urgent. The Church is conscious that this salvation is attainable only in Christ through the Spirit. But the Church, as mother and teacher, cannot fail to reflect upon the fate of all men, created in the image of God, and in a more particular way on the fate of the weakest members of the human family and those who are not yet able to use their reason and freedom.

It is clear that the traditional teaching on this topic has concentrated on the theory of limbo, understood as a state which includes the souls of infants who die subject to original sin and without baptism, and who, therefore, neither merit the beatific vision, nor yet are subjected to any punishment, because they are not guilty of any personal sin. This theory, elaborated by theologians beginning in the Middle Ages, never entered into the dogmatic definitions of the Magisterium, even if that same Magisterium did at times mention the theory in its ordinary teaching up until the Second Vatican Council. It remains therefore a possible theological hypothesis. However, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992), the theory of limbo is not mentioned. Rather, the Catechism teaches that infants who die without baptism are entrusted by the Church to the mercy of God, as is shown in the specific funeral rite for such children. The principle that God desires the salvation of all people gives rise to the hope that there is a path to salvation for infants who die without baptism (cf. CCC, 1261), and therefore also to the theological desire to find a coherent and logical connection between the diverse affirmations of the Catholic faith: the universal salvific will of God; the unicity of the mediation of Christ; the necessity of baptism for salvation; the universal action of grace in relation to the sacraments; the link between original sin and the deprivation of the beatific vision; the creation of man “in Christ”.

The conclusion of this study is that there are theological and liturgical reasons to hope that infants who die without baptism may be saved and brought into eternal happiness, even if there is not an explicit teaching on this question found in Revelation. However, none of the considerations proposed in this text to motivate a new approach to the question may be used to negate the necessity of baptism, nor to delay the conferral of the sacrament. Rather, there are reasons to hope that God will save these infants precisely because it was not possible to do for them that what would have been most desirable— to baptize them in the faith of the Church and incorporate them visibly into the Body of Christ.

Finally, an observation on the methodology of the text is necessary. The treatment of this theme must be placed within the historical development of the faith. According to Dei Verbum 8, the factors that contribute to this development are the reflection and the study of the faithful, the experience of spiritual things, and the teaching of the Magisterium. When the question of infants who die without baptism was first taken up in the history of Christian thought, it is possible that the doctrinal nature of the question or its implications were not fully understood. Only when seen in light of the historical development of theology over the course of time until Vatican II does this specific question find its proper context within Catholic doctrine. Only in this way - and observing the principle of the hierarchy of truths mentioned in the Decree of the Second Vatican Council Unitatis redintegratio (#11) – the topic can be reconsidered explicitly under the global horizon of the faith of the Church. This Document, from the point of view of speculative theology as well as from the practical and pastoral perspective, constitutes for a useful and timely mean for deepening our understanding this problem, which is not only a matter of doctrine, but also of pastoral priority in the modern era.


Which seems to amount to: Given all the other things we've claimed are true and irreformable we can't find a way to rationalize why unbaptized children won't go to hell. But nobody likes how that sounds. And it's always good to hope- so we hope they are saved even though we can't figure out how.
I like to imagine ...
User avatar
John Platko
 
Name: John Platko
Posts: 9411
Male

Country: US
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Vatican video reaching out to women criticized.

#45  Postby John Platko » Dec 30, 2014 2:47 pm

Nebogipfel wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Nebogipfel wrote:
Animavore wrote:
Sure, it used to be their teaching that all non-Catholics will go to hell. Not any more.


Benedict XVI abolished Limbo.


I wonder what happened to all those unbaptised babies in limbo.


God knows. :) And I believe that is still the official answer :grin:


Yes, I believe you are correct.
I like to imagine ...
User avatar
John Platko
 
Name: John Platko
Posts: 9411
Male

Country: US
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Vatican video reaching out to women criticized.

#46  Postby Nebogipfel » Dec 30, 2014 3:41 pm

John Platko wrote:
Nebogipfel wrote:
Animavore wrote:
John Platko wrote:

Do you have any examples of the Church changing its position on doctrine?

Sure, it used to be their teaching that all non-Catholics will go to hell. Not any more.


Benedict XVI abolished Limbo.


That doesn't count! :nono:

From: http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Vatican_abolishes_Limbo
The Church has never made limbo an official doctrine but most Catholics believe in it.



I stand corrected. Although it seems a little like the official line on the Turin Shroud: We're not saying it's so. And we're not saying it's not so. But if you want to go ahead and believe it's so, you won't hear us complaining.


But after sleeping on this:

The Church "does not consider herself authorized to admit women to priestly ordination."
From: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_ ... is_en.html


Perhaps if the Holy Spirit whispers into Pope Francis ear, "I now authorize the Church to ordain woman." the problem will be solved, Church doctrine won't change but rather simply develop.


After the Anglican experience, He'll have to whisper it in a great many more ears than just Francis.
Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion
-- Carl Sagan
User avatar
Nebogipfel
 
Posts: 2085

Country: Netherlands
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Vatican video reaching out to women criticized.

#47  Postby John Platko » Dec 30, 2014 4:15 pm

Nebogipfel wrote:
John Platko wrote:
Nebogipfel wrote:
Animavore wrote:
Sure, it used to be their teaching that all non-Catholics will go to hell. Not any more.


Benedict XVI abolished Limbo.


That doesn't count! :nono:

From: http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Vatican_abolishes_Limbo
The Church has never made limbo an official doctrine but most Catholics believe in it.



I stand corrected. Although it seems a little like the official line on the Turin Shroud: We're not saying it's so. And we're not saying it's not so. But if you want to go ahead and believe it's so, you won't hear us complaining.


On the other hand, at least it's a coherent position, unlike:

from: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337





But after sleeping on this:

The Church "does not consider herself authorized to admit women to priestly ordination."
From: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_ ... is_en.html


Perhaps if the Holy Spirit whispers into Pope Francis ear, "I now authorize the Church to ordain woman." the problem will be solved, Church doctrine won't change but rather simply develop.


After the Anglican experience, He'll have to whisper it in a great many more ears than just Francis.[/quote]
I like to imagine ...
User avatar
John Platko
 
Name: John Platko
Posts: 9411
Male

Country: US
United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Vatican video reaching out to women criticized.

#48  Postby Darwinsbulldog » Dec 31, 2014 12:29 am

John Platko wrote:
Darwinsbulldog wrote:So Jesus can become a cracker, or a cracker can become Jesus, but women cannot be ordained. Yup, that makes sense! :doh:


And they don't even use metaphysics to explain it. Jesus didn't set a precedent for women to be ordained so it's like, what's a Church to do?


Obviously the Vatican is not content with just male nutters, but wants females to be nuts also. Actually, the rot set in with all Abrahamic religions by allowing females to be incubators. This is why the god-magic no longer works. Getting away from "Do not suffer a women witch to live" was when the rot set in. Now they have to treat women as almost human beings, or some facsimile thereof. Of course this humanity myth is just that, as even men were the sheep of god. Well, who knew? If one is searching for logic, reason or evidence, one does not find it in religion.


There's is plenty of logic, reason, and evidence in religion if one looks hard enough to find it- but perhaps not so much in formal Vatican documents.

You are doing it wrong John. If something is self-evidently true [otherwise why be devout?], neither evidence nor reason should be hard to find. By definition, something self-evidently true is perfect in evidence and reason. "All bachelors are unmarried" is a self-evident truth by definition, but it is also circular. HTH.
Jayjay4547 wrote:
"When an animal carries a “branch” around as a defensive weapon, that branch is under natural selection".
Darwinsbulldog
 
Posts: 7440
Age: 65

Print view this post

Re: Vatican video reaching out to women criticized.

#49  Postby John Platko » Dec 31, 2014 3:38 pm

Darwinsbulldog wrote:
John Platko wrote:
Darwinsbulldog wrote:So Jesus can become a cracker, or a cracker can become Jesus, but women cannot be ordained. Yup, that makes sense! :doh:


And they don't even use metaphysics to explain it. Jesus didn't set a precedent for women to be ordained so it's like, what's a Church to do?


Obviously the Vatican is not content with just male nutters, but wants females to be nuts also. Actually, the rot set in with all Abrahamic religions by allowing females to be incubators. This is why the god-magic no longer works. Getting away from "Do not suffer a women witch to live" was when the rot set in. Now they have to treat women as almost human beings, or some facsimile thereof. Of course this humanity myth is just that, as even men were the sheep of god. Well, who knew? If one is searching for logic, reason or evidence, one does not find it in religion.


There's is plenty of logic, reason, and evidence in religion if one looks hard enough to find it- but perhaps not so much in formal Vatican documents.


You are doing it wrong John.


What is the "it" I am doing wrong?



If something is self-evidently true [otherwise why be devout?], neither evidence nor reason should be hard to find. By definition, something self-evidently true is perfect in evidence and reason. "All bachelors are unmarried" is a self-evident truth by definition, but it is also circular. HTH.


Ummm. I'm not getting your point. The whole idea behind defining something is to make it definite so there is no need to argue about it - circularly or otherwise.
I like to imagine ...
User avatar
John Platko
 
Name: John Platko
Posts: 9411
Male

Country: US
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Vatican video reaching out to women criticized.

#50  Postby Darwinsbulldog » Jan 01, 2015 2:56 am

John Platko wrote:
Darwinsbulldog wrote:
John Platko wrote:
Darwinsbulldog wrote:So Jesus can become a cracker, or a cracker can become Jesus, but women cannot be ordained. Yup, that makes sense! :doh:


And they don't even use metaphysics to explain it. Jesus didn't set a precedent for women to be ordained so it's like, what's a Church to do?


Obviously the Vatican is not content with just male nutters, but wants females to be nuts also. Actually, the rot set in with all Abrahamic religions by allowing females to be incubators. This is why the god-magic no longer works. Getting away from "Do not suffer a women witch to live" was when the rot set in. Now they have to treat women as almost human beings, or some facsimile thereof. Of course this humanity myth is just that, as even men were the sheep of god. Well, who knew? If one is searching for logic, reason or evidence, one does not find it in religion.


There's is plenty of logic, reason, and evidence in religion if one looks hard enough to find it- but perhaps not so much in formal Vatican documents.


You are doing it wrong John.


What is the "it" I am doing wrong?



If something is self-evidently true [otherwise why be devout?], neither evidence nor reason should be hard to find. By definition, something self-evidently true is perfect in evidence and reason. "All bachelors are unmarried" is a self-evident truth by definition, but it is also circular. HTH.


Ummm. I'm not getting your point. The whole idea behind defining something is to make it definite so there is no need to argue about it - circularly or otherwise.


Oh dear, i thought it would be obvious, but apparently not. A little thing called LOGIC. HTH. :thumbup:

[HTH=Hope That Helps].
Jayjay4547 wrote:
"When an animal carries a “branch” around as a defensive weapon, that branch is under natural selection".
Darwinsbulldog
 
Posts: 7440
Age: 65

Print view this post

Re: Vatican video reaching out to women criticized.

#51  Postby Doubtdispelled » Jan 01, 2015 2:03 pm



:lol:

And here's the English version


Be quick, ladies, only three days left for this stupendous opportunity to get your views heard! The chance may never come again!
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

― Mark Twain
Doubtdispelled
 
Posts: 11833

Print view this post

Re: Vatican video reaching out to women criticized.

#52  Postby Evolving » Jan 01, 2015 2:11 pm

It does feel a lot more cringeworthy in English. I'm really not sure why that is.
How extremely stupid not to have thought of that - T.H. Huxley
User avatar
Evolving
 
Name: Serafina Pekkala
Posts: 11966
Female

Country: Luxembourg
Luxembourg (lu)
Print view this post

Re: Vatican video reaching out to women criticized.

#53  Postby Doubtdispelled » Jan 01, 2015 2:14 pm

Evolving wrote:It does feel a lot more cringeworthy in English. I'm really not sure why that is.

Because you don't actually speak Italian, perchance? :smile:
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

― Mark Twain
Doubtdispelled
 
Posts: 11833

Print view this post

Re: Vatican video reaching out to women criticized.

#54  Postby Evolving » Jan 01, 2015 2:19 pm

Lol, no, that's not the reason.
How extremely stupid not to have thought of that - T.H. Huxley
User avatar
Evolving
 
Name: Serafina Pekkala
Posts: 11966
Female

Country: Luxembourg
Luxembourg (lu)
Print view this post

Re: Vatican video reaching out to women criticized.

#55  Postby Shrunk » Feb 06, 2015 2:25 pm

The struggles of the Vatican's marketing department continue:

Image


This unfortunate miscalculation of what women want continues. What is the message of the 1936 work of art, “Venus Restored,” a headless cast of Venus bound in ropes, that was chosen as the cover of the official Outline Document for the Plenary?

Some have speculated that the image suggests that women have been held back from rightful opportunities, or, that women have been “reined in” by patriarchy. One blogger quipped, “A woman’s torso trussed like a chicken? That’s inviting.” A gaggle of women’s ordination groups view the image as a depiction of female bondage. No one apparently perceives “Venus Restored” as restoring confidence in the Pontifical Council’s ability to address what women want.


http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog ... nders.aspx
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Shrunk
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 26170
Age: 55
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Vatican video reaching out to women criticized.

#56  Postby Onyx8 » Feb 06, 2015 4:56 pm

Aging celibate males in high power positions struggle with women's issues. Say it ain't so, Joe, say it ain't so.
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
User avatar
Onyx8
Moderator
 
Posts: 17520
Age: 64
Male

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Previous

Return to Christianity

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest