Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

John Baptist

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#101  Postby duvduv » Oct 30, 2016 6:18 am

I guess it's still something of a mystery as to what actual difference the JtB story arc makes for the entire story line of the JC of the NT. Especially in relation to his role reversal in the Mandaean religion, which must have emerged in reaction to the new Roman religion glorifying JC who is a negative character for the Mandaeans.
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Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#102  Postby solazy » Nov 03, 2016 3:20 pm

Who were ya, Johnny?
Itinerant preacher living on locusts and honey.
Born on the Summer Solstice 6 months before Jessie.
'He increases, but I must decrease', just like the sun from solstice to solstice.
Summon Robert Taylor:
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Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#103  Postby duvduv » Nov 03, 2016 5:41 pm

I basically consider the forum for informed discussion, and not for tweeting. ..can we get some informed discussion?
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Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#104  Postby Leucius Charinus » Dec 17, 2016 4:38 am

duvduv wrote:I guess it's still something of a mystery as to what actual difference the JtB story arc makes for the entire story line of the JC of the NT. Especially in relation to his role reversal in the Mandaean religion, which must have emerged in reaction to the new Roman religion glorifying JC who is a negative character for the Mandaeans.


When Eusebius invented the new historiographical form of ecclesiastical history in the 4th century he had to go back to all his available historical sources in the preceding 300 odd years. He cobbled a great deal of cultural stories, facts and legends, together in order to create a framework to narrate the appearance on Earth of the great "Nation of Christians". He was creating a new nationalistic history and how the Christian Colony transformed the Roman Empire.


Duvduv if you have not already done so, check out the work of Gmirkin referenced here and there in discussions.
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the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

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Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#105  Postby duvduv » Apr 06, 2017 11:14 pm

I haven't had a chance to read Gmirkin's book, but I read reviews about it. Perhaps I missed something about the emergence of the Baptist into the Christian narrative. I suppose his introduction was simply to harken to the prophets and especially to invoke the role of Elijah in the Second Book of Kings. However, when reading about him in Kings one sees that the similarity with the Baptist as expressed in the gospels is very superficial, and rather than be an isolated desert prophet, Elijah is fully involved in society, all the way to court of Jezebel and Ahab. Indeed, unlike the Baptist Elijah went up to heaven in a fiery chariot! Perhaps those who wrote the gospels were only concerned with a limited expression in Jewish tradition (as eventually described in the Talmud and Midrash) that he is to be the precursor of the Messiah, and nothing else.
As expressed in this Midrashic source below. Ironically as a written source it would have indeed appeared long after the 1st century, several centuries later. But oral traditions would have been known among Jews.

And Moses said to God who am I…: Why did He tell him “for I Myself sent you?” Our Sages of blessed memory said: It is a sign for the first redemption, since with “I Myself” the Children of Israel went down to Egypt, as it says (Gen. 46:4) “I Myself will go down with you to Egypt” and by “I Myself” I will bring you up. And it is a sign for the final redemption, that with “I Myself” they will be healed and be redeemed, as it says (Malachi 3): “Behold, I Myself will send you Elijah the prophet.”
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Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#106  Postby Dark energy » Apr 07, 2017 12:13 am

it is interesting that quran talks about cleaning the body after wet dream or bed activity ,it has nothing to do with forgiveness but more to clean the body.

where did you get the idea that quran never talks about John the baptist? his story is briefly mentioned.
https://www.soundvision.com/article/joh ... t-of-islam
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Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#107  Postby duvduv » Apr 07, 2017 12:26 am

So the introduces a story that is not original, so what? I wanted to focus on where the Baptist came from originally. And even if he was intended by the authors to resembles Elijah. But why the specifically water immersion as part of his MO? What is the origin of that?!
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Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#108  Postby Agrippina » Apr 07, 2017 8:07 am

Jewish ritual baths. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikveh

There are several Christian religions that make the connection: JWs and the Nazarenes who based their religion on the http://essene.com/B'nai-Amen/MysticalImmersion.htmEssene sect's rituals.

Total immersion is a more fundamentalist ritual. More moderate Christians merely drip water on the head, others don't require baptism of any sort for conversion.
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Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#109  Postby duvduv » Apr 07, 2017 6:52 pm

In Judaism immersion in the ritual bath has had meaning for ritual PURIFICATION from menstruation, contact with the dead and certain animals. Also the requirement exists for new converts to Judaism to immerse as a ritual of purification. But none of this has anything to do with remission of sins and forgiveness for general sins at all. Only God himself can do that. But the ritual immersion has nothing to do with it. There is also an ancient practice of men immersing after wet dreams or sexual relations.
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Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#110  Postby Agrippina » Apr 08, 2017 8:06 am

Ritual bathing came before Christianity. Christianity adopted the practice, and gave it a new meaning. Jesus! The connection isn't that difficult to make. It's only one of the ancient customs adopted by Christians, like Saturnalia becoming Christmas, and the celebration of spring becoming Easter. All the mythology around the life and death of Jesus was made up by early Christians to validate their new form of the religion they adopted from the Jews, along with their god.

The requirement for new converts to Judaism involves a whole lot more than a ritual bath, and yes, the first ritual bath is, just like in some Christian religions, the step from not being a Jew/member of whatever religious sect, to being a Jew/member of religious sect: JW, SDA, Mormon etc.

ETA: Also the "remission of sin" thing is not the reason for immersion in Christianity. It's the ceremonial becoming of a member of the sect. The remission of sin thing is done during the process of joining the religion, and is reinforced with regular attendance at services, and payment of monthly tithes and collections in church, in the catholic church, by confession. Protestantism adopted the ritual of confession, dropping it, but using the ritual of eating wafers and drinking wine on a regular basis, something they also stole from the catholics, who do it at every mass. Protestant churches do it usually on a three-monthly basis.
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Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#111  Postby duvduv » Apr 10, 2017 4:48 pm

Agrippina, in Judaism no immersion washes away sin. Yet we find a major contradiction. Since in certain places baptism is remission in the New Testament, and in others, the blood of Jesus. If his blood is enough, then who needs baptism?!

Matthew 26:28: This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (Although Luke 22:20 (not to mention epistle to the Hebrews) doesn't say it this way: "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you.")

Mark 1:4: "John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."

Baptism for the remission of sins did not begin until the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:37-38)

"And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).
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Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#112  Postby Agrippina » Apr 11, 2017 6:54 am

duvduv wrote:Agrippina, in Judaism no immersion washes away sin. Yet we find a major contradiction. Since in certain places baptism is remission in the New Testament, and in others, the blood of Jesus. If his blood is enough, then who needs baptism?!


Oh for goodness sake. I didn't SAY that. So what if there's a contradiction. It's purely cultural adoption. A little like Africans adopting western dress in the modern world. They don't immerse themselves in western culture, but because the west dresses in suits and ties, African leaders do it too. It has nothing to do with the history of the suit and tie, it has nothing to do with dressing like Prince Charles, it's to do with expediency and looking good, and westerners being offended by people dressed in animal skins attending meetings. Got that?

Ok now let's go back to the immersion thing. When they were making up a story about why the Jews immersed themselves in water, in the early days of Christianity, just as today's Christians know very little about the origin of their religion while they believe in fantasy virgin births and people magically rolling stones away from a above-ground tomb, they saw the immersion thing and possibly thought "hmmm that's a good idea, we'll do that, and give the idea of someone from history, some person who offended the Jews", or something. It had nothing to do with the actual reasons the Jews did it, it was invented by the early Christians.

You're preaching. I'm not interested in a sermon, I'm interested to debunking stupid shit that people believe. Because this whole easter thing, grown up adults who are able to function in the world outside their Sunday piety, actually is a load of hogwash. People need to learn history, and the origins of the nonsense things they do.

Please stop preaching, or you will be reported.
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Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#113  Postby duvduv » Apr 14, 2017 9:07 pm

I am not preaching at all. I am responding to questions and clarificating issues from what was your attempt to suggest that forgiveness of sin was part of Jewish immersion. If you do not think so, then that's fine. The question really would be WHY the inventors of the gospels needed the Baptist to forgive sin by immersion at all if Jews did not believe in that, even in his status as precursor or "Elijah" before Jesus.
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Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#114  Postby Agrippina » Apr 15, 2017 12:38 pm

duvduv wrote:I am not preaching at all. I am responding to questions and clarificating issues from what was your attempt to suggest that forgiveness of sin was part of Jewish immersion. If you do not think so, then that's fine. The question really would be WHY the inventors of the gospels needed the Baptist to forgive sin by immersion at all if Jews did not believe in that, even in his status as precursor or "Elijah" before Jesus.


Read my posts again. At no time did I suggest a reason for Jewish ritual bathing. Definitely not that it was "forgiveness of sin". Sins were forgiven by sacrifice. Wore a mixed fabric, bring a couple of doves to die, and be burnt, and your wearing of mixed cloth is forgiven. Have sex with a virgin, pay over some money, and marry her, and your sin is forgiven. Ritual bathing was nothing to do with sin forgiveness.

My suggestion was that when foreigners, called gentiles by the Jews, observed ritual bathing, and while they were making up their version of the Jewish god's mythology, they said "hey wait, that's a good idea, we'll force these smelly people to be washed for the first time in their lives, then when they come up smelling a little cleaner, we'll tell them their sins are forgiven, and that Jesus loves them". It's merely a suggestion, for whatever other reason would people willingly jump into a river of dirty water, except to be cleaned, of body odour or sin, it makes no difference.

When you cite the bible to prove the bible, you're preaching. Whether you believe it or not, lecturing me about my personal observations being wrong because the bible says so, about what the bible tells you to do, is preaching. Stop doing it.
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Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#115  Postby Pebble » Apr 15, 2017 5:57 pm

Given the proliferation of gnostic sects in the 1st and 2nd centuries CE that considered the 'body' polluted and had different ideas about how to purify it (including of sin) it hardly seems surprising that when codifying what would be the dominant creed to be accepted in the Roman empire, a version that included baptism was accepted. The Mandaeans and Manicheans appear to have been particularly influential.
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Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#116  Postby duvduv » May 27, 2017 7:23 pm

Isn't it true that Hindus believe that immersion in the Ganges River purifies AND forgives sins?
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Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#117  Postby The_Metatron » May 27, 2017 9:50 pm

duvduv wrote:Isn't it true that Hindus believe that immersion in the Ganges River purifies AND forgives sins?

You have something to say? Say it.

What you write looks for all appearances like poking a hornets' nest to see what happens. Or JAQing off.


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Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#118  Postby Stein » May 28, 2017 1:38 am

duvduv wrote:I basically consider the forum for informed discussion, and not for tweeting. ..can we get some informed discussion?


Maybe you can give us some informed discussion yourself as soon as you get your head out of that crank myther junk you parrot on the Historical Jesus thread all the time.

.....pot meet kettle..........

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Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#119  Postby duvduv » May 29, 2017 12:26 am

Stein, could you please reword your posting into comprehensible English?
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Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#120  Postby Stein » May 30, 2017 8:10 am

duvduv wrote:Stein, could you please reword your posting into comprehensible English?

I get it. John meets Jane. John goes downhill with Jane.

Sorry no can do. I graduated from grade school quite a while ago, thanks. But if my newly married nephew fathers a child, I imagine that child will be just about your speed -- until he's in grade school, of course. And if you recoil at this snarky tone, I suggest you take a good long look in the mirror.

That comprehensible enough for you? :thumbup:

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