Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

John Baptist

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

Moderators: Blip, DarthHelmet86

Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#81  Postby Leucius Charinus » Oct 26, 2015 3:55 am

dejuror wrote:Who had copies of the works of Josephus in the 4th century to check for discrepancies??

The Illiterate???

It should be obvious that the NT authors wrote their stories of Jesus very late.


From this is can be inferred that the [very literate] authors of the heretical Gnostic Gospels and Acts and other heretical non canonical books, wrote their truly weird and absolutely outrageous "Other Jesus Stories" even later. They wrote that:

    He came to the world by the Jordan river, and immediately the Jordan turned back.
    And John bore witness to the descent of Jesus.

See the NHL Testimony of Truth
http://gnosis.org/naghamm/testruth.html


Who is this dude who can change the course of mighty rivers?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure ... (TV_series)

    .... strange visitor from another planet, who came to Earth with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men! The Non Canonical Jesus... who can change the course of mighty rivers, bend steel in his bare hands, and who, disguised as Eusebius, mild-mannered reporter for a great metropolitan newspaper, fights a never-ending battle against [non canonical] heresy, for truth, justice, and the Canonical Christian way! And now, another exciting episode, in the Non Canonical Adventures of Jesus and the Twelve Galilaeans!.

    EPISODE 42

    How the Apostles resurrected smoked fish.
    How the Apostles used "bright clouds" as transportation devices.
    How the Apostles prayed and pagan temples were destroyed.
    How the Apostles did not find the Pearl, inside the City of Nine Gates.

    Stay tuned.

"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

Emperor Julian (362 CE)
User avatar
Leucius Charinus
 
Posts: 840

Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#82  Postby duvduv » Nov 03, 2015 12:34 pm

I guess it should be assumed that the unusual theology of the Mandaeans in reference to JC and the Baptist must have also derived from Josephus, except for the fact that somewhere along the line Jesus became an evil character in relation to the Baptist - I suppose a traitor after the story of his baptism, which is not mentioned in Josephus. And then Jerusalem became an evil city as well through some turn of theology.
duvduv
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 463

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#83  Postby this-gospel » Nov 27, 2015 6:17 am

duvduv wrote:One of the most interesting things about the story of John the Baptist in the gospels is that the idea of immersion as forgiveness for sin has no basis whatsoever in Judaism.
Immersion in water, whether by a woman after her period, the high priest on Yom Kippur, or any man after a nocturnal immersion refers SOLELY to the idea of PURIFICATION of the soul, and has nothing whatsoever to do with remission, forgiveness or confession of sins at all. Confession of sins occurs at Yom Kippur during the prayer services, and is unrelated to the idea of immersion. So where did that idea come from to get incorporated into the gospels?

And beyond that, where did the story and importance of John the Baptist come from at all? He is really unnecessary to the thrust of the story of Jesus, and the story would be fine without it.

Furthermore, the word gospel as used in relation to John (Gospel of the Kingdom of God in Mark) is unexplained, as is the general term of the "the gospel of Jesus Christ". What is "THE gospel, and what is the Gospel of John of the Kingdom of God??




Are you a Jew?
this-gospel
 
Name: Mariappan Eddiah
Posts: 7
Age: 52

Malaysia (my)
Print view this post

Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#84  Postby duvduv » Nov 27, 2015 7:30 am

Yes, but what difference does that make to my question??
duvduv
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 463

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#85  Postby Darwinsbulldog » Nov 27, 2015 7:51 am

duvduv wrote:Yes, but what difference does that make to my question??

Jews murdered the sweet baby Cheeses reptile zombie, who ressurected himself like an unflushable turd and so of course all Jews cannot be objective about any discussion concerning the magically generated parthenogenic creature we use as an excuse to indulge in major retail therapy during the month of December. :grin:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
"When an animal carries a “branch” around as a defensive weapon, that branch is under natural selection".
Darwinsbulldog
 
Posts: 7440
Age: 65

Print view this post

Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#86  Postby this-gospel » Nov 27, 2015 10:57 am

duvduv wrote:Yes, but what difference does that make to my question??


It makes a big difference. Can I ask you some questions?

Do you know for sure that God (the God Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Israel) exists?
this-gospel
 
Name: Mariappan Eddiah
Posts: 7
Age: 52

Malaysia (my)
Print view this post

Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#87  Postby Shrunk » Nov 27, 2015 12:20 pm

this-gospel wrote:
duvduv wrote:Yes, but what difference does that make to my question??


It makes a big difference. Can I ask you some questions?

Do you know for sure that God (the God Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Israel) exists?


I think you might first have to elaborate a bit more on the "big difference" you think duvduv's being Jewish makes, before people are inclined to answer your questions. Just a thought.
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Shrunk
 
Posts: 26170
Age: 55
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#88  Postby this-gospel » Nov 27, 2015 12:45 pm

Shrunk wrote:
this-gospel wrote:
duvduv wrote:Yes, but what difference does that make to my question??


It makes a big difference. Can I ask you some questions?

Do you know for sure that God (the God Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Israel) exists?


I think you might first have to elaborate a bit more on the "big difference" you think duvduv's being Jewish makes, before people are inclined to answer your questions. Just a thought.


I am getting there. Please bear with me. If you answer my questions, it will help me answer your question.
this-gospel
 
Name: Mariappan Eddiah
Posts: 7
Age: 52

Malaysia (my)
Print view this post

Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#89  Postby proudfootz » Nov 27, 2015 12:55 pm

Could 'remission of sins' be a form of 'purification of the soul'?
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
User avatar
proudfootz
 
Posts: 10968

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#90  Postby duvduv » Nov 27, 2015 8:05 pm

As far as I know it's simply forgiveness, but this is not what Jewish immersion does. Sins at that time were forgiven only in prayer and by bringing the appropriate sacrifices. Immersion purified from states of impurity to enable particular activities, such as cohabitation after menstruation or eating the Passover sacrifice.
duvduv
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 463

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#91  Postby duvduv » Nov 27, 2015 8:09 pm

this-gospel wrote:
duvduv wrote:Yes, but what difference does that make to my question??


It makes a big difference. Can I ask you some questions?

Do you know for sure that God (the God Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Israel) exists?

Excuse me, but this thread is not the place to discuss one's personal theology. It is about the Baptist, and who exactly this Yohanan was, I.e. a composite figure of rebels. And where the notion that he was *purifying* sinners comes from.
duvduv
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 463

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#92  Postby duvduv » Nov 27, 2015 8:15 pm

I would also like to mention again that the John of the Quran, Yahya, played no role as the predecessor of Jesus/Isa in anything, yet he was still so important and of course venerated in his own right by the Mandaeans.
duvduv
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 463

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#93  Postby ADParker » Nov 27, 2015 11:41 pm

this-gospel wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
this-gospel wrote:
duvduv wrote:Yes, but what difference does that make to my question??


It makes a big difference. Can I ask you some questions?

Do you know for sure that God (the God Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Israel) exists?


I think you might first have to elaborate a bit more on the "big difference" you think duvduv's being Jewish makes, before people are inclined to answer your questions. Just a thought.


I am getting there. Please bear with me. If you answer my questions, it will help me answer your question.

There is no point in him answering your question, because you are quite simply wrong about your claim; there is no way that him telling you how strong his belief in the existence of that deity is can in any way help you to answer his question, as the two have no bearing on one another.
It might help you estimate how easy it is likely to be for you to baffle him with bullshit though, is that what you mean? :think:
Reason Over Faith
User avatar
ADParker
RS Donator
 
Name: Andrew
Posts: 5643
Age: 48
Male

Country: New Zealand
New Zealand (nz)
Print view this post

Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#94  Postby duvduv » Dec 09, 2015 5:07 pm

The chapter (Sura) entitled Maryam in the Quran contains most of the verses that related to Yahya, the son of Zakariya, who is born to elderly parents and becomes a great prophet. No mother's name is identified, and nothing about his actual life is discussed at all. http://ahadees.com/english-surah-19.html
As other events in the Quran, the story of Yahya is ahistorical, and cannot be placed in any specific time period. There is nothing specifically identical with the John of Luke, except his birth to elderly parents, and no relationship to Jesus (Isa).
By contrast, in the writings of the Mandaeans, there is a negative relationship between Yahya (John) and Jesus at the time of the baptism. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringo ... -john.html
http://rogueleaf.com/book-of-john/2011/ ... e-baptist/

It is generally assumed that all the information contained in the Quran and the Mandaean writings about John must have come from the gospels. But isn't it equally possible that the information of all three texts was derived from the same common source? The Mandaeans knew about Jesus and Elizabeth in reference to John, but the Quran knows none of it. The Quran sees John as a prophet of greatness together with Jesus and others. The Mandaeans see Yahya as a total opposite to Jesus and other biblical prophets. Why did the gospels have to integrate a view of John that was partially that of the Mandaeans, and why didn't the Quran contain more?!
And why are there no traditional Jewish sources that even mention John at all?!
Strangely enough, the way John is mentioned in Josephus, the author seems to assume that the reader has the necessary background about John to know who he is referring to (even if Josephus is a source for the gospels).
http://www.livius.org/sources/content/j ... e-baptist/
duvduv
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 463

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#95  Postby duvduv » Dec 09, 2015 7:25 pm

If the Baptist was such a well-known person to be incorporated into first the gospels, then the Mandaean text, and the Quran briefly, he would have been cited in the Talmud along with other figures. Josephus mentions Jim in a off the cuff way, with no reference to his background or saintliness, beyond saying that he was a good man. Well, there were LOTS of good people, but the Josephus reference sounds relatively insignificant.
If he was an invented legend, then how would he become so important to be revered by Mandaeans and a prophet by Muslims?
There is the possibility that the John and Jesus relationship of the Mandaeans originated as a parody or insult of Constantine's new religion. The Quran accepts Jesus and John together, so one wonders whether the Mandaean version came AFTER the Quran, not before, as a polemical and political rejection of the Christian AND Muslim versions of Jesus.
Indeed, many believe the Mandaean Book of John was written in early Islamic times.....
duvduv
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 463

United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#96  Postby duvduv » Dec 09, 2015 7:35 pm

If the reference to John and many other writings of Josephus were interpolated by the Church, why wouldn't they have wanted to downplay the theological aspects of history?! After all, "Josephus" does not get presented as a theologian, either Jewish or otherwise, but as an external observer, we might say even a journalist. So interpolating Christian theology would be inappropriate, and would be a dead giveaway. Instead a passing reference would appear to be a reliable witness from the first century by an outside impassioned observer, either for the Baptist or for Jesus himself.
duvduv
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 463

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#97  Postby duvduv » Jan 16, 2016 3:49 am

Leucius, I think it's logical to assume that the Mandaean myths and veneration of the Baptist would mean that the Mandaean religion emerged after Eusebius in the 4th century as standing in opposition to the new official religion of Jesus veneration. The Mandaeans must have interpreted the official gospels as a breakaway orientation from their own veneration of the Baptist. But the question is WHY this break occurred specifically over the Baptist.
duvduv
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 463

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#98  Postby Leucius Charinus » Jan 17, 2016 3:06 am

duvduv wrote:Leucius, I think it's logical to assume that the Mandaean myths and veneration of the Baptist would mean that the Mandaean religion emerged after Eusebius in the 4th century as standing in opposition to the new official religion of Jesus veneration. The Mandaeans must have interpreted the official gospels as a breakaway orientation from their own veneration of the Baptist. But the question is WHY this break occurred specifically over the Baptist.


When the NT Bible was used as a political instrument of the Roman state and Emperor there were massive truckloads of breaks with every single custom and tradition in the Roman Empire. It was literally a "new and strange religion". Every single pre-existent religious and philosophical group and school and cult in the Roman Empire at that time had to ADAPT. They all tried hard to adapt. But they all failed.

By the time of Theodosius - who decreed for the orthodoxy of the Nicene Fathers of 325 CE - they were all relegated and dealt with under the Roman Law as "insane heretics". Mopping up these insane heretics did not happen until many centuries afterwards. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism#Suppression
"It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. "

Emperor Julian (362 CE)
User avatar
Leucius Charinus
 
Posts: 840

Print view this post

Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#99  Postby duvduv » Jan 18, 2016 1:48 am

Too bad the scholarship doesn't see the fluidity of this religion.
duvduv
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 463

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Where Did John The Baptist Come From in NT?

#100  Postby duvduv » Jun 06, 2016 6:38 pm

Does anyone have any new ideas about the specific origin of the Baptist figure in the NT? I guess it makes sense that the Mandean reverence for him indicates some kind of gnostic anti-Christian expression (perhaps as parody in their gnostic ideology).........
duvduv
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 463

United States (us)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Christianity

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest