Who established the canon of the New Testament??

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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#41  Postby scott1328 » Jun 17, 2018 2:38 pm

The story of the canonization of the NT appears to be as fictional as the NT itself. The narrative I learned during my childhood in fundagelical circles was that the Protestant canon was assembled and recognized as god-breathed Truthtm by 100ad with the Apocalypse of John being added shortly thereafter. After Constantine the apocrypha was added by the Great Whore of Babylon (the holy Roman Catholic Church)
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#42  Postby Leucius Charinus » Oct 24, 2018 10:42 pm

scott1328 wrote:The story of the canonization of the NT appears to be as fictional as the NT itself.


At last the beginning of a sensible historical answer can be explored. It is accepted that the canon of the New Testament was not subject to closure until c.367 CE based on a letter supposedly written by Athanasius, who is also regarded as the inventor of Christian hagiography since he authored "The Life of Anthony" c.360 CE. It is not too difficult to understand hagiographers as authors of fiction.


duvduv wrote:[size=150]IF the NT existed in the 1st and 2nd century what was the official authority that established which texts were divinely inspired for inclusion and which were not?


The 4th century editor of the widespread publication of Greek Bible codices in the rule of Constantine, Eusebius IN WHOM WE TRUST, was the authority. Obviously. He packaged the Bible Codices with "eusebian canon tables", and wrote the only history of the Christian church during the ascent and victory of Constantine over the Eastern Roman Empire.

This history may as well be fictional.

How could a book allegedly written by Iraeneus or Justin or anyone else claim divine authority for the 4 gospels and the epistles etc. in the first or second century if no authority (i.e. Council of Hippo and Carthage) existed to established the canon of 4 gospels, etc.?


There is reason to investigate the possibility that Irenaeus and Justin and other "literary sources" like Tertullian were fabrications of the later 4th century church of Rome, particularly when the Damasius defeated other aspiring bishops in the streets of Rome and installed himself - later accepting the role of "Pontifex Maximus". Damasus sponsored his star pupil Jerome to create the Latin Bible in a wonderfully appointed Latin scriptorium.

Four centuries later the Latin Church forgery mill Pseudo-Isodore operating out of Corbbie Abbey in north central France was still c.840 CE pumping out letter exchanges between Christian bishops of the 1st to the 3rd centuries. The church organisation was after all an industry. A tertiary education industry. And it still is.




How on earth can anyone logically believe in all the claims of the NT existing in the first or even the second century when there was no authority to establish its canon for the allegedly existing religion?!!


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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#43  Postby Stein » Feb 11, 2019 8:33 pm

SkyMutt wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
SkyMutt wrote:

Your posting of that link strongly suggests that you believe the Council of Nicea established the canon. Ever since Dan Brown's misinformation-packed fantasies became popular, that's been considered common knowledge. It also is almost certainly untrue.

How do you know this?


Earlier in this thread, I provided a link to a previous post which gives a brief description of some of the most relevant historical evidence, with links. No reputable historical scholar that I'm aware of accepts the idea that the First Council of Nicea produced a biblical canon of any sort. Note that the Wikipedia page on the First Council of Nicea that Sendraks linked to doesn't say that that synod produced a biblical canon. In fact it includes a section on the historical misconception I've pointed out. It does describe canon law promulgated at the synod, which is something else entirely.

We could go into the historiography of this issue but I doubt anyone here is particularly interested, though some would possibly find it gratifying to sneer at such a discussion.


That sneering attitude is exactly what gets know-nothing bullies like Trump into power. This is the final victory of the web and crank forums like these, where creeps actually pride themselves on IGNORANCE of historiography. "Too boring." Just establish their own echo culture instead, replete with "alternative facts" and geared to outright fabrication based on hate (bleating things like "the undocumented increase crime levels" when Pew analysis reveals exactly the opposite), and their own man of lies soars right to power -- big surprise. You know, the old saying that "Those ignorant of history are bound to repeat it" is partly wrong; it should be "Those ignorant of history are bound to invent it". That's what Trumpsters and bored inattentive cranks on forums like these do. Congratulations, you creeps finally got one of your own, a true ignoramus and bully replete with "alternative facts", into the highest seat of power. Happy now? Don't bother watching the news. You can learn just as much looking in the mirror.

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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#44  Postby Hermit » Feb 12, 2019 12:21 am

Is it asking too much that people look up the meaning of words like historiography before using them?
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Re: Who established the canon of the New Testament??

#45  Postby RealityRules » Feb 23, 2019 10:02 am

duvduv wrote:If the NT existed in the 1st and 2nd century, what was the official authority that established which texts were divinely inspired for inclusion and which were not?

How could a book allegedly written by Iraeneus or Justin or anyone else claim divine authority for the 4 gospels and the epistles etc. in the first or second century if no authority existed to established the canon of 4 gospels, etc.?

How on earth can anyone logically believe in all the claims of the NT existing in the first or even the second century when there was no authority to establish its canon for the allegedly existing religion?!


Maybe read The First Edition of the New Testament by David Trobisch, 2000. A limited preview is available at Google Books or via Amazon.

Some people think Marcion's collection of ten of Paul's letters, a Luke-lite gospel called the Euangelion (and maybe a couple of other letters; an 'epistle to the Alexandrians' and an 'epistle to the Laodiceans') was a type of canon, and that others produced another type of canon-like collection in opposition to it, and Trobisch alludes to that.

The proposition that Marcion butchered a version of the Gospel of Luke to produced his Euangelion is/has now being/been discredited by several scholars.

Trobisch refers to Polycarp's edition of the Letters of Ignatius; Marcion's 'Bible'; Greek editions of Jewish Scriptures; the Didache; and a few individual documents like the Letter of Barnabas*, the Shepherd of Hermas*, the Gospel of Thomas, etc.

    * which were in the first full canons dated to the fourth century: the codices Sinaiticus and Vaticanus

A Muratorian Canon/ List-Fragment is variably dated from the late 2nd century to the 4th century.

A very interesting read is 'Pantheon: A New History of Roman Religion', 2018, by Jörg Rüpke, who has published lots 'On the History of Religion in the Roman Imperial Period' (the title of a 2016 book) and 'Religion of the Romans' (the tile of a 20007 book). Rüpke essentially says many started as individual but popular works of fiction in the second century and became so popular that some people started copying the genre or rewriting them and many started collecting them. He says the Epistle of Barnabas and the work titled 'Shepherd of Hermas' were very popular, as were a few others (awork titled something like Epislte of or to the Apostles was another popular one).

There were also various gnostic texts and collections of them: they are not as likely to be reactions to the letters attributed to Paul or to the synoptic gospels that we have been led to believe them to have been.

The field is wide open.
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