William Lane Craig goes for the youth market

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: William Lane Craig goes for the youth market

#21  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Dec 03, 2017 9:57 am

The video in the OP seems to have become unavailable.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: William Lane Craig goes for the youth market

#22  Postby SafeAsMilk » Dec 03, 2017 1:22 pm

That's a shame, I never got around to reading the comments on YouTube. Bet they were amazing.
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Re: William Lane Craig goes for the youth market

#23  Postby Animavore » Dec 03, 2017 2:49 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:That's a shame, I never got around to reading the comments on YouTube. Bet they were amazing.

Amazing in the way proudly landing a 14 inch shit is amazing.
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Re: William Lane Craig goes for the youth market

#24  Postby VazScep » Dec 03, 2017 9:02 pm

Thommo wrote:I think loosely speaking you could take "ultimate significance" or "ultimate purpose" as being the idea that there will never be a time at which that significance or purpose is lost.

So in a hundred million years when nobody remembers me or the things I cared about the significance of whether I enjoyed spending time with friends or loved ones will be lost, that information will no longer exist, but if I existed eternally in heaven then the meaning of those relationships would endure.

I think it's fair to say that Christian theology, if correct would mean that such a thing existed. Furthermore one would also have been born for a purpose, albeit the purpose of existing to honour and glory God isn't one I find particularly reassuring, personally speaking.

As far as its weight as an argument goes I'd agree that I don't think it has any, because whilst I suspect that the idea runs that people believe their life does have a purpose and ultimate significance and that since this is not the case if there is no god then they must therefore believe in god, all that actually does is replace one presupposition (the existence of god) with another (the existence of ultimate significance).
I have to say that I've always been suspicious of "purpose". It implies that the universe and everything in it is artificial. If our race of beings were created for some inscrutable purpose then that is just somehow dirtier to me than being part of a race of beings that evolved naturally.

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Re: William Lane Craig goes for the youth market

#25  Postby SkyMutt » Dec 03, 2017 11:12 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:The video in the OP seems to have become unavailable.


Fear not. It's simply been moved to the new page for the channel.
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Re: William Lane Craig goes for the youth market

#26  Postby Shrunk » Dec 04, 2017 3:36 pm

Thanks! I'll just repost the video here for convenience. I don't know if the mods can change the link in the OP.

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Re: William Lane Craig goes for the youth market

#27  Postby DavidMcC » Dec 04, 2017 4:47 pm

VazScep wrote:
Thommo wrote:I think loosely speaking you could take "ultimate significance" or "ultimate purpose" as being the idea that there will never be a time at which that significance or purpose is lost.

So in a hundred million years when nobody remembers me or the things I cared about the significance of whether I enjoyed spending time with friends or loved ones will be lost, that information will no longer exist, but if I existed eternally in heaven then the meaning of those relationships would endure.

I think it's fair to say that Christian theology, if correct would mean that such a thing existed. Furthermore one would also have been born for a purpose, albeit the purpose of existing to honour and glory God isn't one I find particularly reassuring, personally speaking.

As far as its weight as an argument goes I'd agree that I don't think it has any, because whilst I suspect that the idea runs that people believe their life does have a purpose and ultimate significance and that since this is not the case if there is no god then they must therefore believe in god, all that actually does is replace one presupposition (the existence of god) with another (the existence of ultimate significance).
I have to say that I've always been suspicious of "purpose". It implies that the universe and everything in it is artificial.
...

Only if the word, "purpose" is explicitly or implictly in the context of cosmology!
It's like the word, "why", which some people assume (for no good reason) implies purpose.
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Re: William Lane Craig goes for the youth market

#28  Postby Cito di Pense » Dec 04, 2017 5:45 pm

DavidMcC wrote:Only if the word, "purpose" is explicitly or implictly in the context of cosmology!


I don't think so. When you're not referring to design and design criteria, you can use function, instead.

Someone who's not a proponent of intelligent design or other teleological philosophy has no business talking about purpose in the context of organic evolution. It's an indication that sloppy thinking might be afoot.
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Re: William Lane Craig goes for the youth market

#29  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Dec 04, 2017 8:14 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
It's like the word, "why", which some people assume (for no good reason) implies purpose.

Why implies a reason and in the context of cosmology a purpose.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: William Lane Craig goes for the youth market

#30  Postby aban57 » Dec 05, 2017 10:17 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
It's like the word, "why", which some people assume (for no good reason) implies purpose.

Why implies a reason and in the context of cosmology a purpose.


Well the confusion only exists because "why" can be used as a replacement for "how" in common language.

"Why does the earth turns around the sun" could/should actually be phrased "how (by what mechanism) does the earth turns around the sun".

It's common tactics for believers to use the confusion on a word meaning (like theory) to instill doubt in the gullible's minds.
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Re: William Lane Craig goes for the youth market

#31  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Dec 05, 2017 12:15 pm

aban57 wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
It's like the word, "why", which some people assume (for no good reason) implies purpose.

Why implies a reason and in the context of cosmology a purpose.


Well the confusion only exists because "why" can be used as a replacement for "how" in common language.

"Why does the earth turns around the sun" could/should actually be phrased "how (by what mechanism) does the earth turns around the sun".

It's common tactics for believers to use the confusion on a word meaning (like theory) to instill doubt in the gullible's minds.

:nod: Dishonest semantic games.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: William Lane Craig goes for the youth market

#32  Postby Tracer Tong » Dec 05, 2017 10:47 pm

VazScep wrote:I assume pretty much all atheists have already made complete peace with the ultimate pointlessness of existence, and know to stress "ultimate". They might even bring it up every so often in order to say that we should focus on what's *really* important, the little things, like becoming good at baseball.


I'm not so sure they have, but perhaps some have made a degree of peace.

Also, that video spells Bertrand Russell's name wrong.
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Re: William Lane Craig goes for the youth market

#33  Postby pelfdaddy » Dec 06, 2017 4:18 am

Most people look forward to becoming an adult, leaving home, and beginning a life that they choose for themselves, rather than the life their parents choose for them.

Why then do so many people seem eager to live in a universe where everything is planned and mapped out by 'Dad'?
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Re: William Lane Craig goes for the youth market

#34  Postby Thommo » Dec 06, 2017 5:03 am

Maybe your antecedent is incorrect.
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Re: William Lane Craig goes for the youth market

#35  Postby Tracer Tong » Dec 06, 2017 2:10 pm

Thommo wrote:Maybe your antecedent is incorrect.


I'm surprised you'd buy into this sort of crass pseudo-psychoanalysis. But perhaps I've not understood you.
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Re: William Lane Craig goes for the youth market

#36  Postby Thommo » Dec 06, 2017 6:10 pm

Tracer Tong wrote:
Thommo wrote:Maybe your antecedent is incorrect.


I'm surprised you'd buy into this sort of crass pseudo-psychoanalysis. But perhaps I've not understood you.


I'm suggesting that "Most people look forward to becoming an adult, leaving home, and beginning a life that they choose for themselves, rather than the life their parents choose for them. " is of dubious provenance.

For example: Do most children go with, against or independently from the religion their parents teach them?
Do most children have wholly different moral and political values from their parents?
Of those children who are brought up within a family business, do most reject it?

And so on.

If pressed for a psychological explanation for religion, in most cases I'd say that people believe* what they were taught when they were young, typically by people they love and trust. The overwhelming majority of Christians do not convert because they are searching for a father figure to plan their life, or indeed searching for anything else for the simple reason the overwhelming majority of Christians are not converts at all.

*Or disbelieve, as far as I'm aware this holds true for non believers as well.
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Re: William Lane Craig goes for the youth market

#37  Postby Cito di Pense » Dec 06, 2017 8:37 pm

Thommo wrote:The overwhelming majority of Christians do not convert because they are searching for a father figure to plan their life, or indeed searching for anything else for the simple reason the overwhelming majority of Christians are not converts at all.


So, in the matter of this thread, what do we think WLC's objective is in making a video like that? We don't think he's trying to convert anyone, do we? It's even obvious from the content that he's concerning himself with the ongoing conversation between believers and non-believers. That he is unable to come up with something better than we've seen here conveys to me some sort of message about the role of religion in giving anyone a sense of ultimate significance. That sense of ultimate significance comes directly from imagining having won an argument about religion on the internet.
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Re: William Lane Craig goes for the youth market

#38  Postby Thommo » Dec 06, 2017 8:42 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Thommo wrote:The overwhelming majority of Christians do not convert because they are searching for a father figure to plan their life, or indeed searching for anything else for the simple reason the overwhelming majority of Christians are not converts at all.


So, in the matter of this thread, what do we think WLC's objective is in making a video like that? We don't think he's trying to convert anyone, do we?


I would suspect not.

I don't know why he does what he does, I don't think it really matters though. I am sufficiently disenchanted with his dishonesty that I won't be searching through footage of him in search of the reason either.
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Re: William Lane Craig goes for the youth market

#39  Postby Cito di Pense » Dec 06, 2017 8:44 pm

Thommo wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Thommo wrote:The overwhelming majority of Christians do not convert because they are searching for a father figure to plan their life, or indeed searching for anything else for the simple reason the overwhelming majority of Christians are not converts at all.


So, in the matter of this thread, what do we think WLC's objective is in making a video like that? We don't think he's trying to convert anyone, do we?


I would suspect not.

I don't know why he does what he does, I don't think it really matters though. I am sufficiently disenchanted with his dishonesty that I won't be searching through footage of him in search of the reason either.


Sorry, Thommo. My tongue was firmly in my cheek in making that post. I think it's hilarious that we still have threads figuratively rolling eyes at some statement made by WLC or noting that kids frequently take up the religion of their parents or speculating that religion involves a personal search for ultimate significance.
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Re: William Lane Craig goes for the youth market

#40  Postby Thommo » Dec 06, 2017 8:48 pm

Fair enough.
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