Did Hitler escape to Argentina after the war?

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Re: Did Hitler escape to Argentina after the war?

#21  Postby virphen » Oct 20, 2011 9:41 am

This thread really belongs in the conspiracy theory section with all the other tinfoil hat crap.
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Re: Did Hitler escape to Argentina after the war?

#22  Postby jamest » Oct 20, 2011 10:00 am

virphen wrote:This thread really belongs in the conspiracy theory section with all the other tinfoil hat crap.

Actually, it probably belongs in the philosophy forum, where we can discuss the merits of utterly believing something when sufficient proof is lacking - combined with the arrogance and disdain [for other perspectives] which one always find associated with such beliefs. We'd have to rename the thread 'bigotry', or something similar.

None of the discussion here has been about the book itself. It's been about people such as yourself mocking and disregarding a perspective/work when you know fuck all about it. Appeals to authority/consensus abound, but they alone do not suffice to close this matter.
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Re: Did Hitler escape to Argentina after the war?

#23  Postby virphen » Oct 20, 2011 10:09 am

No, moronic gullibility would be a better name for your thread.
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Re: Did Hitler escape to Argentina after the war?

#24  Postby jamest » Oct 20, 2011 10:46 am

virphen wrote:No, moronic gullibility would be a better name for your thread.

I have already stated that I don't believe the premise of the book. How could I, if I haven't even read the book?

What I have actually stated is that I have good reason to doubt the FACT that Hitler died in Berlin in 1945, since evidence for that fact amounts to hearsay. What I am in fact saying, is that I am open minded regards this issue.

My objection in this thread, then, pertains to the arrogant mocking and disdain of perspectives/works in general, when nothing is known of those perspectives/works - combined with the fact that there is insufficient reason to close one's mind to the issue in question, anyway.

I have clearly demonstrated, then, that it is not I who is gullibe - but the likes of yourself - who evidently and unquestionably will believe anything that 'consensus' throws at you. Not only that, but that you will stubbornly and rudely defend those beliefs to the hilt, regardless of the irrationality inherent within such an endeavour. That is, your mind appears to be unjustifiably closed on this issue.

Unless I state that I believe the premise of the book in question (which I haven't) - and unless you have read the book in question (which you haven't) - then you don't have any reason to call me gullible. Not unless you conflate gullibility with open-mindedness where evidence is lacking, that is.
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Re: Did Hitler escape to Argentina after the war?

#25  Postby jamest » Oct 20, 2011 11:15 am

Just a thought...

It strikes me as ironic, at a minimum, regards the lengths people will go to to support hearsay in some circumstances and reject it in others. Take this issue, for instance, where the vast majority of people here believe that Hitler died in Berlin - all grounded within the hearsay of a few people. On the other hand, the vast majority of the people here utterly reject the hearsay associated with the life and death of Jesus. Hearsay, then, appears to be good enough when you want it to be good enough. I can certainly understand that sentiment here - after all, most people would be horrified to know that Hitler might have been living it up for the best part of 20 years, after the war, instead of being hung by his balls (ball?) and left to rot.

The problem is that sentiment has very little to do with fact. Certainly, sentiment shouldn't dictate what facts are.
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Re: Did Hitler escape to Argentina after the war?

#26  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 20, 2011 12:48 pm

:this:

Very true. I think people find the ides so abhorent that just cant be accepted at any cost.
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Re: Did Hitler escape to Argentina after the war?

#27  Postby Tracer Tong » Oct 20, 2011 5:44 pm

jamest wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:
jamest wrote:
Well, there is evidence - which as far as I know amounts to hearsay. Further, we should probably assume that the few witnesses were probably very loyal to Hitler, having being chosen to work that close to him. If this is the case, then "scholarly consensus" doesn't seem to cut it.


The scholarly consensus is that Hitler died in his bunker. I trust the scholarly consensus over your very shallow musings.

The scholarly consensus doesn't have the necessary evidence to state that Hitler actually died in Berlin. It's as simple as that. You just believe them because of who they are - not because of what they know.

I'm not even saying that I think Hitler did not die in Berlin. I'm just pointing-out that there is reason and [hence] credibility in doubting it as a fact.


How do you know that the scholars do not have the necessary evidence to state that Hitler died in Berlin? Do you really expect me to take your word for it over theirs? Of course I believe them because of who they are: since I don't know much about the topic, I accept the general opinion of the community of relevant experts. You do the same with doctors.

jamest wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:
jamest wrote:I bet you haven't read the book and your reason for judging it as you have seems very dubious to me.

I prefer to remain open minded. Best way to be.


I don't need to read the book. Its premise is prima facie absurd

Why? Several prominent nazis escaped to South America. What exactly do you consider to be 'absurd'?


Several Nazis escaped to Argentina, ergo it is plausible that Hitler did also? Christ.

jamest wrote:
Tracer Tong wrote:and it is not published by an academic press.

Granted, which is not to say that it is fiction. From what I can gather, one of the authors is an international journalist and the other has written more than 50 books on military history. Further, 5 years of thorough research went into writing this particular book. To brush them off as Laurel & Hardy, then, seems foolhardy.


Yet after all that research they couldn't persuade an academic press to publish their book. I expect OUP, Routledge, CUP, Blackwell, etc. just weren't "open minded" enough.

As far as the authors themselves are concerned, neither are academics. Your "military historian" has, from my brief survey of his work, not written a single academic text on history, but confined himself to short, popular narratives published by obscure, non-academic presses.

Thus, we have two non-academics, published by a non-academic press, making a prima facie ridiculous claim questioning the established scholarly orthodoxy. I know who I believe.

jamest wrote:
Within the context of this discussion, it simply means not asserting that this case is closed. Nothing more. I don't even have anything to say about the book itself, as I've not read it either. Yet.


The case is never closed in history. That doesn't mean we should entertain as credible all bullshit with which conspiracy theorists hope to make their reputation. You think you're engaged in some enlightened exploration of ideas. What you're actually doing is coming across as incredibly credulous and undiscerning.
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Re: Did Hitler escape to Argentina after the war?

#28  Postby virphen » Oct 20, 2011 6:07 pm

jamest wrote:
virphen wrote:No, moronic gullibility would be a better name for your thread.

I have already stated that I don't believe the premise of the book. How could I, if I haven't even read the book?

What I have actually stated is that I have good reason to doubt the FACT that Hitler died in Berlin in 1945, since evidence for that fact amounts to hearsay. What I am in fact saying, is that I am open minded regards this issue.

My objection in this thread, then, pertains to the arrogant mocking and disdain of perspectives/works in general, when nothing is known of those perspectives/works - combined with the fact that there is insufficient reason to close one's mind to the issue in question, anyway.

I have clearly demonstrated, then, that it is not I who is gullibe - but the likes of yourself - who evidently and unquestionably will believe anything that 'consensus' throws at you. Not only that, but that you will stubbornly and rudely defend those beliefs to the hilt, regardless of the irrationality inherent within such an endeavour. That is, your mind appears to be unjustifiably closed on this issue.

Unless I state that I believe the premise of the book in question (which I haven't) - and unless you have read the book in question (which you haven't) - then you don't have any reason to call me gullible. Not unless you conflate gullibility with open-mindedness where evidence is lacking, that is.



Errr, see this is well, one of many places you fall down. I did not dismiss the work out of hand - I spent 20 minutes seeking out the reviews, reading the ones on Amazon and in other places. It became very clear that this book fell in the huge category of books not written with a serious and genuine historical hypothesis, but with tabloid trash "make-a-headline" pseudohistorical cash mining as the objective. One doesn't have to read every member of this genre to clearly identify one, no more than I can't easily dismiss the books that claim Aliens destroyed Atlantis and built the pyramids without being "unjustifiably close-minded". There is also the number of objections I raised that a book such as this would have to address. It's comparable to the fake moon-landing hypothesis in that it requires us to give credence to a ridiculously extensive conspiracy of silence, including (as one of the reviewers on that threat comments) the significant number of Germans held by the tender hands of the NKVD. These points you apparently wish to just hand-wave away in the most casual manner, but you simply just can't get away with doing that.

And my references to gullibility were to the ridiculous 5 star reviews on the Amazon link provided, by all these ridiculous people absolutely CONVINCED by a book that provides ZERO EVIDENCE (according to those knowledgeable in the field who have reviewed it). Perhaps you neglected to read those as well?

Put sure, I am gullible, close-minded, all the other personal attacks you decided to launch at me.

This book, this hypothesis has nothing to recommend it, no evidence to support it and is simply untenable.

And when the alternative situations require a situation of such miraculous implausibility, historians or anyone else are quite justified in coming to the conclusion that the witness testimonies (your definition of hearsay seems ... well rather wacky, again) are accurate and the position that Hitler and Braun did commit suicide and were burned outside the bunker entrance is the true one.
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Re: Did Hitler escape to Argentina after the war?

#29  Postby virphen » Oct 20, 2011 6:21 pm

jamest wrote:Just a thought...

It strikes me as ironic, at a minimum, regards the lengths people will go to to support hearsay in some circumstances and reject it in others. Take this issue, for instance, where the vast majority of people here believe that Hitler died in Berlin - all grounded within the hearsay of a few people. On the other hand, the vast majority of the people here utterly reject the hearsay associated with the life and death of Jesus. Hearsay, then, appears to be good enough when you want it to be good enough. I can certainly understand that sentiment here - after all, most people would be horrified to know that Hitler might have been living it up for the best part of 20 years, after the war, instead of being hung by his balls (ball?) and left to rot.

The problem is that sentiment has very little to do with fact. Certainly, sentiment shouldn't dictate what facts are.


Well the two situations are so very different, aren't they. In fact the converse is true here, the miracles that we are required to believe in the Hitler escape story are analogous to the miracles we are expected to believe in with regards to the Galilean. And again, you need to reconsider what you call hearsay. Hearsay is second hand testimony "so and so said this". Witness testimony is direct. We have a huge number of information taken from people who were there, in the bunker, who witnessed the final downfall of Hitler. We have consistent accounts from those who buried him, and those who observed it (although only the first group could have witnessed the corpses directly. And those accounts did not break down under what would no doubt have been handling from the Soviets with a distinct lack of kid gloves!

Even if there is after such a big distance in time no forensic evidence of the likes you may have come to expect from TV criminologist shows may not exist, but when the balance of likelihoods come down so heavily on one side of a question it is not close-minded or simple arguments from authority to accept it!
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Re: Did Hitler escape to Argentina after the war?

#30  Postby lordshipmayhem » Oct 21, 2011 2:57 am

Actually, it's not "grounded in hearsay". We have direct witnesses who were able to swear that they waited outside the small room (which only had one entrance), heard the shot and entered the room to find the bodies of Hitler and Eva. Their statements were witnessed (the Russians wanted to be damned sure that the bastard was dead, and didn't take any one person's word for it, but insisted on corroboration), and fit in with the skeletal remains that are currently sitting in Russian archives. The dental work on the supposed skull of Hitler matches the historical dental records seized from Hitler's dentist's files.

Hearsay would be someone saying, "Well, General so-and-so said he waited in the hallway," or worse yet, "somebody (name unavailable, just 'somebody') told me (fill in the blank)."
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Re: Did Hitler escape to Argentina after the war?

#31  Postby jamest » Oct 21, 2011 9:11 am

lordshipmayhem wrote:Actually, it's not "grounded in hearsay". We have direct witnesses who were able to swear that they waited outside the small room (which only had one entrance), heard the shot and entered the room to find the bodies of Hitler and Eva. Their statements were witnessed (the Russians wanted to be damned sure that the bastard was dead, and didn't take any one person's word for it, but insisted on corroboration), and fit in with the skeletal remains that are currently sitting in Russian archives. The dental work on the supposed skull of Hitler matches the historical dental records seized from Hitler's dentist's files.

Hearsay would be someone saying, "Well, General so-and-so said he waited in the hallway," or worse yet, "somebody (name unavailable, just 'somebody') told me (fill in the blank)."

Yes, you're right about the hearsay thingy. What I should have said is that the only evidence regards Hitler's death was that of testimony.
Regarding the skull:

American researchers claim to have demonstrated that the skull fragment, secretly preserved for decades by Soviet intelligence, belonged to a woman under 40, whose identity is unknown. DNA analyses performed on the bone, now held by the Russian State Archive in Moscow, have been processed at the genetics lab of the University of Connecticut. The results, broadcast in the US by a History Channel documentary, Hitler's Escape, astonished scientists.

... http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/se ... l-fragment

The same story reported by the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8281839.stm

That's a serious problem.
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Re: Did Hitler escape to Argentina after the war?

#32  Postby Mazille » Oct 21, 2011 10:10 am


!
GENERAL MODNOTE
Alright, I've just moved this thread to where it belongs. Should anyone have any questions, feel free to send a PM my way.
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Re: Did Hitler escape to Argentina after the war?

#33  Postby jamest » Oct 21, 2011 10:33 am

Conspiracy theory? That's a shame, since we aren't even discussing the material in the book. Anyway, I don't think that there's been any suggestion of a 'plot' here, which is surely the main criteria for a conspiracy? Can you explain to us all exactly why you've moved it, then? Cheers.
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Re: Did Hitler escape to Argentina after the war?

#34  Postby Mazille » Oct 21, 2011 10:46 am

Well, I could alternatively have moved it to General Debunking or Pseudoscience, but the decision was made to move it to Conspiracy Theories, because to say that Hitler might have escaped to Argentina implies that several persons "in the know" have lied and given false testimony multiple times, have actively helped Hitler do go under cover and leave Berlin, which was at the time surrounded and partly occupied by a massive part of the Red Army, etc. pp. In short, it would have demanded a concerted, secret effort of many people to not only spirit Hitler away, but to keep him hidden for several decades. And this in a time where not only the Mossad was busy hunting down Ex-Nazis. In short, it requires a conspiracy.
Now, that you mention it, however, the topic might be better suited for "Pseudoscience", because that's what it is. In short, it's fine either here or in Pseudoscience, but it sure as hell isn't going back to "History".

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Re: Did Hitler escape to Argentina after the war?

#35  Postby Varangian » Oct 21, 2011 11:00 am

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Re: Did Hitler escape to Argentina after the war?

#36  Postby jaygray » Oct 21, 2011 11:10 am

Mazille wrote:

<snip>

Now, that you mention it, however, the topic might be better suited for "Pseudoscience", because that's what it is. In short, it's fine either here or in Pseudoscience, but it sure as hell isn't going back to "History".



Quite right too. :thumbup:
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Re: Did Hitler escape to Argentina after the war?

#37  Postby jamest » Oct 21, 2011 11:31 am

Okay, without objecting to the move again, let me address some of your points...

Mazille wrote:Well, I could alternatively have moved it to General Debunking or Pseudoscience

Does the reference to pseudoscience have to do with the DNA testing of the skull, examined by American scientists, as I mentioned a few posts ago?

the decision was made to move it to Conspiracy Theories, because to say that Hitler might have escaped to Argentina implies that several persons "in the know" have lied and given false testimony multiple times,

Not really, since it is the claim of the authors that those 'in the know' have told the truth. Presumably, these witnesses have been used as evidence in the book.

In short, it would have demanded a concerted, secret effort of many people to not only spirit Hitler away, but to keep him hidden for several decades.

It only takes one person to 'make arrangements' and they don't have to say who those arrangements are for. The word 'many' is open to debate.

And this in a time where not only the Mossad was busy hunting down Ex-Nazis.

They weren't hunting for people believed to be dead.
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Re: Did Hitler escape to Argentina after the war?

#38  Postby jaygray » Oct 21, 2011 12:01 pm

Historical investigation requires methodical processes not conducive to journalism. If the current stories about the skull are correct, it is still quite an ambitious leap to conclude that Hitler did not commit suicide, still more that he went into exile elsewhere. Speculative history is fiction.

Journalists (and this is who we are dealing with re the History channel and alas, 'pop-history' / 'pop-investigation' books), love this stuff because it gets an audience. Reality in history tends to be far more boring as a rule.

I have read the book in question, and to me it offers nothing new except its limited use as a consolidation of various re-warmed breakfasts masquerading as new evidence.

The objections raised citing evidence against the main thrust of the book (i.e. contemporary witness testimony etc.) are very real ones, and wound the argument mortally IMHO.

In a way this book reminds me of ‘In Our Time: The Chamberlain-Hitler Collusion’ by Clement Leibovitz & Alvin Finkel. This book was also lapped up by an audience willing to believe the contents (including one Christopher Hitchens who wrote the forward in one of his less-lucid moments). Those who pointed out its inaccuracies / assumptions were also ‘closed minded’ etc. etc. Chamberlain had his undoubted faults, but a Nazi collaborator? Please!

As for the ‘Hitler’ skull evidence astonishing ‘scientists’, well either the astonished scientists (whoever they are) need to get out more maybe or accept that Soviet forensic science in the 1940s may have been open to error. Well duh. This doesn’t seem quite so earth-shattering to me, but whatever floats your boat I suppose.
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Re: Did Hitler escape to Argentina after the war?

#39  Postby jamest » Oct 21, 2011 12:26 pm

jaygray wrote:Historical investigation requires methodical processes not conducive to journalism. If the current stories about the skull are correct, it is still quite an ambitious leap to conclude that Hitler did not commit suicide, still more that he went into exile elsewhere. Speculative history is fiction.

On the flip side, if the current stories about the skull are correct, then where does that leave us regards the testimony of witnesses who led the Soviets to the dead body of Hitler?

Journalists (and this is who we are dealing with re the History channel and alas, 'pop-history' / 'pop-investigation' books), love this stuff because it gets an audience. Reality in history tends to be far more boring as a rule.

That's an underhanded way of appealing to authority, I think - an authority which doesn't even appear to have any material evidence (a body).

The objections raised citing evidence against the main thrust of the book (i.e. contemporary witness testimony etc.) are very real ones, and wound the argument mortally IMHO.

Yes, there were witnesses. But it's naive to believe something just because somebody says that it is so, particularly on this issue. Issues of loyalty and fear abound.

As for the ‘Hitler’ skull evidence astonishing ‘scientists’, well either the astonished scientists (whoever they are) need to get out more maybe or accept that Soviet forensic science in the 1940s may have been open to error. Well duh. This doesn’t seem quite so earth-shattering to me, but whatever floats your boat I suppose.

You don't appear to understand. If the skull isn't Hitlers, then the Soviets never found his body. If the Soviets never found his body, then those that led them to it were either lying or fooled = no material evidence + dodgy witnesses.
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Re: Did Hitler escape to Argentina after the war?

#40  Postby virphen » Oct 21, 2011 1:00 pm

jamest wrote:
You don't appear to understand. If the skull isn't Hitlers, then the Soviets never found his body. If the Soviets never found his body, then those that led them to it were either lying or fooled = no material evidence + dodgy witnesses.


The skull fragment concerned was not recovered with the rest of the remains that were exhumed in 1945 and matched to Hitler's dental records. It was only found in 1946, in roughly the same general area, and could have belonged to anyone.

Your claim that the discovery that the skull fragment could not possibly belong to Hitler implies the witnesses were unreliable is a total non sequitur.
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