JFK Assassination

Lone shooter or conspiracy?

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Re: JFK Assassination

#721  Postby Animavore » Jul 27, 2020 7:52 pm

proudfootz wrote:
Animavore wrote:Here's a really long and detailed one on the "acoustical evidence.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/odell/


Here's one of those peer reviewed papers occasionally demand:

Summary and Conclusions

The validity of acoustic evidence for a gunshot from the‘Grassy Knoll’ was challenged on statistical grounds and on the basis of an anomaly on the Dallas police recordings. However, the assumptions underlying those criticisms were not in accord with evidence overlooked by the review panel. With a rigorous statistical analysis one arrives at a calculation for the probability that the recording contains a random pattern which by chance resembled the acoustic signature of a gunshot from the Grassy Knoll at no more than p= 0.037.

...

The unambiguous cross-talk evidence indicates that the gunshot-like sounds on channel one were recorded over the police radio at the precise instant in real time that the President was being assassinated by gun-fire.The order in the data, that is, the congruence between the acoustic evidence and the sequence of events derived from a reconstruction of the crime from video evidence is the major factor that led acoustic experts to conclude that there was a gunshot from the Grassy Knoll during the assassination.

http://www.jfklancer.com/pdf/Thomas.pdf


Science triumphs over the emotional pull of the 'lone nut' scenario favored by denialists.

This is what is dealt with and refuted in the link I posted.

I'm not sure what the "emotional pull" of the lone nut scenario is supposed to mean. I wasn't around for all of this so it's just a story to me. One that's the flavour of the month to me right now because I'm a little bored, by next week I'll be into something else.

You have way more investment in this than me. You actually care about this.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#722  Postby proudfootz » Jul 27, 2020 9:31 pm

Animavore wrote:You have way more investment in this than me. You actually care about this.


I suppose in a way that's true - whether or not there was a coup in the US is a matter of interest to me. I'm not one of those who think it doesn't matter one way or the other.

Yet you care enough to take the fringe position that there was no conspiracy. I suppose being a contrarian has its allure.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#723  Postby Fallible » Jul 27, 2020 9:41 pm

This is one of those areas where I’m not informed enough to make a reasoned decision, and there’s so much else to learn that I don’t give it much time. When the subject comes up, I’m interested.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#724  Postby proudfootz » Jul 27, 2020 9:46 pm

Thommo wrote:The peer review process includes responses from peers. For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_%26_Justice
https://www.sciencedirect.com/sdfe/pdf/ ... t-page-pdf
In particular we have used recorded 60 Hz hum and correlation methods to obtain ac- curate speed calibrations for recordings made on both channels, cepstral analysis to seek instances of repeated segments during playback of Channel 2 (which could result from groove jumping), and spectrographic and correlation methods to analyze instances of putative crosstalk used to synchronize the two channels. This paper identifies serious errors in the Thomas paper and corrects errors in the NRC report. We reaffirm the earlier conclusion of the NRC report that the alleged "shot" sounds were recorded approximately one minute after the assassination.


It would sure be a a win for Coincidence Theorists if they could show how the recordings of the shot sounds allegedly recorded approximately one minute after the assassination mapped precisely to the acoustic signature of Dealey Plaza and map precisely to the Zapruder film by mere coincidence.

In the meantime we'll have to accept the science and reject the speculation.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#725  Postby Animavore » Jul 27, 2020 10:00 pm

proudfootz wrote:
Animavore wrote:You have way more investment in this than me. You actually care about this.


I suppose in a way that's true - whether or not there was a coup in the US is a matter of interest to me. I'm not one of those who think it doesn't matter one way or the other.

Yet you care enough to take the fringe position that there was no conspiracy. I suppose being a contrarian has its allure.


Saying that I'm being contrarian suggests that I'm going against the some grain on purpose, but I've seen no evidence of a conspiracy and my readings show that the conspiracy theorists take the position of trying to chip away at the official account and poke holes rather than provide positive evidence for their position (the false dichotomy that proving the other 'side' wrong proves them right) . This is standard pseudoscience practice I've seen in creationists, climate change denialists, anti-vaxxers, etc. so you'll have to forgive my wariness of the conspiracy theorists.

Where's the positive evidence of conspiracy? Where's the names of the conspirators? Saying "it was the CIA" is nebulous and shadowy. Where's the recordings of their meetings? Where's documents of their meetings? Where the letters and correspondence between the conspirators? Where are the witness accounts of these other gunmen? Where are the bullets, cartridges, and weapons? Where's the evidence - recordings, minutes of meetings, correspondence, etc. - of the collusion between the different agencies who would have to have been involved, CIA, FBI, government officials, secret service, local police, commissions and investigators. And so on and so on.

That's what I'm interested in.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#726  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jul 27, 2020 10:31 pm

delete
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Re: JFK Assassination

#727  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jul 27, 2020 10:33 pm

proudfootz wrote:
Animavore wrote:You have way more investment in this than me. You actually care about this.


I suppose in a way that's true - whether or not there was a coup in the US is a matter of interest to me.

Who did the coup, then? Secret service, FBI and CIA is fringe by your own measure.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#728  Postby Thommo » Jul 28, 2020 5:52 am

proudfootz wrote:It would sure be a a win for Coincidence Theorists if they could show how the recordings of the shot sounds allegedly recorded approximately one minute after the assassination mapped precisely to the acoustic signature of Dealey Plaza and map precisely to the Zapruder film by mere coincidence.


That's already present in both Animavore's link and the ones I posted.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#729  Postby proudfootz » Jul 28, 2020 6:40 am

Fallible wrote:This is one of those areas where I’m not informed enough to make a reasoned decision, and there’s so much else to learn that I don’t give it much time. When the subject comes up, I’m interested.


I agree that it is interesting (obviously!).

Aside from the controversy about whether the murder was committed by a single individual or as part of a larger plot, the assassination put an end to a chapter in American history. Kennedy set out as a distinct contrast to the previous administration in terms of his ambition and energy. Johnson was energetic in his own way.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#730  Postby proudfootz » Jul 28, 2020 6:50 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
Animavore wrote:You have way more investment in this than me. You actually care about this.


I suppose in a way that's true - whether or not there was a coup in the US is a matter of interest to me.

Who did the coup, then? Secret service, FBI and CIA is fringe by your own measure.


The House Select Committee didn't identify any particular group as being behind the plot. They did agree with the Warren Commission that Oswald was one of the assassins.

I don't think there's any consensus on the question of the identity of the plotters to be on the fringe of.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#731  Postby proudfootz » Jul 28, 2020 7:00 am

Thommo wrote:
proudfootz wrote:It would sure be a a win for Coincidence Theorists if they could show how the recordings of the shot sounds allegedly recorded approximately one minute after the assassination mapped precisely to the acoustic signature of Dealey Plaza and map precisely to the Zapruder film by mere coincidence.


That's already present in both Animavore's link and the ones I posted.


The links seem to go to a one-paragraph summary of their timing theory.

Is there a fuller discussion of the acoustics issues identified by Dr. James Barger at BBN and Mark Weiss and Ernest Aschkenasy of Queen's College?

In the meantime, enjoy a response to the Linkser et al paper:

https://fas.org/rlg/ThomasComment__correspondence1.pdf
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Re: JFK Assassination

#732  Postby Thommo » Jul 28, 2020 7:05 am

proudfootz wrote:
Thommo wrote:
proudfootz wrote:It would sure be a a win for Coincidence Theorists if they could show how the recordings of the shot sounds allegedly recorded approximately one minute after the assassination mapped precisely to the acoustic signature of Dealey Plaza and map precisely to the Zapruder film by mere coincidence.


That's already present in both Animavore's link and the ones I posted.


The links seem to go to a one-paragraph summary of their timing theory.


Oh, ok, well, the full reply paper to Thomas can be found here, for example:
http://www.jfk-records.com/ScienceAndJustice_45(4)_207-226(2005).pdf
(found by following the citations on the provided pages along with a subsequent letter reply in the journal conversation under discussion: https://www.webcitation.org/6Iu3RaLIj?url=http://www.fas.org/rlg/RL9b02_WithFigNums&Preamble_RL6818_JFKReply(+FullPageFigures).pdf )

Animavore's link contains a lengthy summary of points raised in Thomas and the response, the vast majority of the material from this paragraph:
Thomas argued that if a later instance of crosstalk, ("you want me...") were used to synchronize the two channels then the shots did not appear too late. The NRC explained this apparent difference by pointing out that channel II was sound activated and could easily have stopped between the two crosstalk instances. Thomas did not accept this explanation, believing that a regression chart from the BRSW report proved that channel II did not stop during the interval. If the channel II recording had been continuous then one of the crosstalk instances had to have been displaced on the recording by a jumping recording stylus, or some other cause. Because such a displacement appeared to be the only explanation reconciling the timing data, the synchronization of the Decker crosstalk with the "shots" could no longer rule out the possibility that they were the real shots.

onwards deals specifically with that paper and the issues it raises.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#733  Postby proudfootz » Jul 28, 2020 7:14 am

Thanks for the links!
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Re: JFK Assassination

#734  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jul 28, 2020 11:45 am

proudfootz wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
Animavore wrote:You have way more investment in this than me. You actually care about this.


I suppose in a way that's true - whether or not there was a coup in the US is a matter of interest to me.

Who did the coup, then? Secret service, FBI and CIA is fringe by your own measure.


The House Select Committee didn't identify any particular group as being behind the plot.

It did specifically say that the groups I mentioned were not behind the plot. So if it was a coup, as you seem to think it might be, then who would be involved?

I don't think there's any consensus on the question of the identity of the plotters to be on the fringe of.

It states pretty clearly who wasn't involved. I'm curious who else might be involved that would be of interest rather than just 1 or 2 randos with a beef.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#735  Postby felltoearth » Jul 28, 2020 1:31 pm

Proudfootz seems to be happy to accept their conclusion on the single shooter. I, like SAM, am interested in whether or not he accepts the other conclusions.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#736  Postby Svartalf » Jul 28, 2020 2:09 pm

Whereas the data that led to the "magic bullet" theory point to multiple shooters, and jack ruby's killing of oswald points to a conspiration to boot.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#737  Postby Thommo » Jul 28, 2020 2:18 pm

Only one of those is true.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#738  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jul 28, 2020 5:03 pm

felltoearth wrote:Proudfootz seems to be happy to accept their conclusion on the single shooter.

Is he? He seems pretty tied to it being a conspiracy, if only in the most narrow sense because that would require at least two people to be involved, and not necessarily anything more than that. If Oswald had a buddy then it's not that much more interesting without some sort of bigger motive. No secret service, no CIA, no FBI, no Russia, no Cuba if we're consistent in accepting the findings. Why think there's some bigger mystery or coup or something when it just looks like one or two guys who wanted him dead?

Another source (sorry if already posted) indicating the shot-like sounds came a minute after, and are therefore unrelated and don't indicate there was a second shooter (unless that person was REALLY late):

https://www.nap.edu/catalog/10264/repor ... -acoustics

That's the science, you can complain about it to the consistency of 60 cycle hums :dunno:
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Re: JFK Assassination

#739  Postby felltoearth » Jul 28, 2020 11:29 pm

The Commission concluded that two gunmen were likely.

proudfootz wrote:
Animavore wrote:

B. Scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that two gunmen fired at President John F. Kennedy.


:think:


:thumbup:

Thank you for your support!


He’s fine with that conclusion but hasn’t weighed in on the others.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#740  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jul 28, 2020 11:42 pm

I just don't understand what difference it makes.
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