JFK Assassination

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Re: JFK Assassination

#741  Postby felltoearth » Jul 29, 2020 5:22 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:I just don't understand what difference it makes.

I do. He hasn’t explicitly said (that I can see) what kind of conspiracy took place. The Committee stated that there is no evidence for a conspiracy beyond a few individual and unidentifiable conspirators and that conspiracy by foreign governments or criminal organizations is unlikely. If he accepts one of the Committee’s findings, I would think he would accept the other findings as well, or explicitly state what his objections are.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#742  Postby proudfootz » Jul 29, 2020 7:26 am

Animavore wrote:
Saying that I'm being contrarian suggests that I'm going against the some grain on purpose, but I've seen no evidence of a conspiracy and my readings show that the conspiracy theorists take the position of trying to chip away at the official account and poke holes rather than provide positive evidence for their position (the false dichotomy that proving the other 'side' wrong proves them right) . This is standard pseudoscience practice I've seen in creationists, climate change denialists, anti-vaxxers, etc. so you'll have to forgive my wariness of the conspiracy theorists.


Since as of 1978 Congress concluded there was a conspiracy, it seems you've placed yourself in rather interesting company as you chip away at it the official position.

I don't see any value in constantly demonizing those who hold a different opinion, as it can lead to this sort of being hoisted by one's own petard.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: JFK Assassination

#743  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 29, 2020 9:18 am

proudfootz wrote:
Animavore wrote:
Saying that I'm being contrarian suggests that I'm going against the some grain on purpose, but I've seen no evidence of a conspiracy and my readings show that the conspiracy theorists take the position of trying to chip away at the official account and poke holes rather than provide positive evidence for their position (the false dichotomy that proving the other 'side' wrong proves them right) . This is standard pseudoscience practice I've seen in creationists, climate change denialists, anti-vaxxers, etc. so you'll have to forgive my wariness of the conspiracy theorists.


Since as of 1978 Congress concluded there was a conspiracy, it seems you've placed yourself in rather interesting company as you chip away at it the official position.

I don't see any value in constantly demonizing those who hold a different opinion, as it can lead to this sort of being hoisted by one's own petard.


"Congress" (implying the body as a whole) did not reach such a conclusion. Only the members of the HSCA delivered such a conclusion, and it was not unalloyed with room for doubt. Much subsequent commentary has diluted the effectiveness of the HSCA report in settling conspiracy theories.

It does you no credit to mis-state such facts. If you suspect you're being demonized, perhaps it has something to do with your pulling shit like this. One stunt beloved of conspiracy theorists is to complain how they're being demonized. Frankly, it's your investment of years in misrepresenting skepticism of this conspiracy theory which explains and is easily implicated in such behavior. I could be curious about it, too, but life moves on for most people.

What the fact of the assassination does is shame the open and relaxed attitude that left a popular but controversial president riding in an open car along a street lined with tall buildings. Find anyone who questioned that and you can add some fuel to the conspiracy fire. There is undoubtedly stuff that would have embarrassed important people after the fact, and collusion to keep such facts out of view is not the same as hiding a conspiracy to assassinate the President.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#744  Postby Animavore » Jul 29, 2020 12:03 pm

proudfootz wrote:
Animavore wrote:
Saying that I'm being contrarian suggests that I'm going against the some grain on purpose, but I've seen no evidence of a conspiracy and my readings show that the conspiracy theorists take the position of trying to chip away at the official account and poke holes rather than provide positive evidence for their position (the false dichotomy that proving the other 'side' wrong proves them right) . This is standard pseudoscience practice I've seen in creationists, climate change denialists, anti-vaxxers, etc. so you'll have to forgive my wariness of the conspiracy theorists.


Since as of 1978 Congress concluded there was a conspiracy, it seems you've placed yourself in rather interesting company as you chip away at it the official position.

I don't see any value in constantly demonizing those who hold a different opinion, as it can lead to this sort of being hoisted by one's own petard.


Well the official position of the HSCA was that the FBI, CIA, Cuba, The Soviets, the Secret Service, and anti-Castro groups had no involvement. And conclude LHO did it. No contradiction with my current view so far. They say there's evidence of a conspiracy by some un-named shadowy figures based on some dodgy acoustic evidence that says there was another shot fired from somewhere else. A fourth shot, no less, no one else heard.

Even if there was another alleged shot heard, and that's in doubt, it's still a leap to say there was a conspiracy without being able to provide evidence of who these conspirators were or a cartridge or bullet. It could be anything. A firecracker. A car backfire. Another unrelated person who just happened to be making an assassination attempt at the same time. I'm not understanding how they're getting from A to C here without passing through B.

It's not a case of chipping away. There's nothing to chip at.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#745  Postby laklak » Jul 29, 2020 3:47 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
What the fact of the assassination does is shame the open and relaxed attitude that left a popular but controversial president riding in an open car along a street lined with tall buildings.


"What could possibly go wrong?" - Lyndon B. Johnson, November 21, 1963
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Re: JFK Assassination

#746  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 29, 2020 3:58 pm

laklak wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
What the fact of the assassination does is shame the open and relaxed attitude that left a popular but controversial president riding in an open car along a street lined with tall buildings.


"What could possibly go wrong?" - Lyndon B. Johnson, November 21, 1963



Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#747  Postby proudfootz » Jul 30, 2020 7:40 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
proudfootz wrote:

I suppose in a way that's true - whether or not there was a coup in the US is a matter of interest to me.

Who did the coup, then? Secret service, FBI and CIA is fringe by your own measure.


The House Select Committee didn't identify any particular group as being behind the plot.

It did specifically say that the groups I mentioned were not behind the plot. So if it was a coup, as you seem to think it might be, then who would be involved?

I don't think there's any consensus on the question of the identity of the plotters to be on the fringe of.

It states pretty clearly who wasn't involved. I'm curious who else might be involved that would be of interest rather than just 1 or 2 randos with a beef.


Trying to determine who might be involved in the plot is the sort of thing that motivates people to look into the facts of the case. Oswald's associations, as he is one of the accused shooters, is a good place to start looking.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#748  Postby proudfootz » Jul 30, 2020 7:50 am

felltoearth wrote:Proudfootz seems to be happy to accept their conclusion on the single shooter. I, like SAM, am interested in whether or not he accepts the other conclusions.


The conclusion on the matter of multiple shooters seems solid, with forensic evidence supporting what witnesses observed and filmed evidence from the event.

As far as the HSCA giving a clean bill of health to anyone else I don't know what they based that on.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#749  Postby proudfootz » Jul 30, 2020 8:05 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
Animavore wrote:
Saying that I'm being contrarian suggests that I'm going against the some grain on purpose, but I've seen no evidence of a conspiracy and my readings show that the conspiracy theorists take the position of trying to chip away at the official account and poke holes rather than provide positive evidence for their position (the false dichotomy that proving the other 'side' wrong proves them right) . This is standard pseudoscience practice I've seen in creationists, climate change denialists, anti-vaxxers, etc. so you'll have to forgive my wariness of the conspiracy theorists.


Since as of 1978 Congress concluded there was a conspiracy, it seems you've placed yourself in rather interesting company as you chip away at it the official position.

I don't see any value in constantly demonizing those who hold a different opinion, as it can lead to this sort of being hoisted by one's own petard.


"Congress" (implying the body as a whole) did not reach such a conclusion. Only the members of the HSCA delivered such a conclusion, and it was not unalloyed with room for doubt. Much subsequent commentary has diluted the effectiveness of the HSCA report in settling conspiracy theories.

It does you no credit to mis-state such facts. If you suspect you're being demonized, perhaps it has something to do with your pulling shit like this.


As I did credit and link to the HSCA, if anyone was misled by my reference to 'Congress' it was unintentional. :cheers:

One stunt beloved of conspiracy theorists is to complain how they're being demonized. Frankly, it's your investment of years in misrepresenting skepticism of this conspiracy theory which explains and is easily implicated in such behavior. I could be curious about it, too, but life moves on for most people.


Nothing wrong with being uninterested. This thread has many posts from people who take time out of their busy schedules to express that very sentiment.

What the fact of the assassination does is shame the open and relaxed attitude that left a popular but controversial president riding in an open car along a street lined with tall buildings. Find anyone who questioned that and you can add some fuel to the conspiracy fire. There is undoubtedly stuff that would have embarrassed important people after the fact, and collusion to keep such facts out of view is not the same as hiding a conspiracy to assassinate the President.


That's an interesting theory, a perennial in the study of the case.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#750  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 30, 2020 9:05 am

proudfootz wrote:
Trying to determine who might be involved in the plot is the sort of thing that motivates people to look into the facts of the case.


People who have never figured out anything owning an established result are motivated to look into the facts of the case and conclude whatever they like. You argue that the HSCA established a conspiracy when nothing of the kind is the result, and I'm not about to be misled by that.

proudfootz wrote:
As I did credit and link to the HSCA, if anyone was misled by my reference to 'Congress' it was unintentional.


Your reputation is already established. Don't expect anyone to be keeping track of everything you post, because this isn't a court or other legal record. If you post carelessly, you can expect to be called on it.

People cling to conspiracy theories precisely in order to heap abuse on skepticism of a pet theory.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#751  Postby Thommo » Jul 30, 2020 10:02 am

proudfootz wrote:The conclusion on the matter of multiple shooters seems solid, with forensic evidence supporting what witnesses observed and filmed evidence from the event.


Indeed, there is no physical evidence of a second shooter once you account for the sort of errors described in Linkser and Garwin or the incorrect explanation of the positions of Connally and Kennedy at the time of the shooting that led to one of the bullets being derogatorily dubbed "magic". There are lots of excellent layman accessible accounts of the modern understanding of the evidence in places like this: https://www.npr.org/2013/11/22/24673453 ... d-case-jfk .

There may or may not have been a conspiracy or second shooter, but forensic evidence on the matter is decidely one-sided. The circumstances surrounding Oswald and his murder by Jack Ruby are odd, but given both men are dead there's probably never going to be any full answer to the question of their motives.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#752  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jul 30, 2020 12:46 pm

proudfootz wrote:
felltoearth wrote:Proudfootz seems to be happy to accept their conclusion on the single shooter. I, like SAM, am interested in whether or not he accepts the other conclusions.


The conclusion on the matter of multiple shooters seems solid, with forensic evidence supporting what witnesses observed and filmed evidence from the event.

As far as the HSCA giving a clean bill of health to anyone else I don't know what they based that on.

I'm shocked that you want to have it both ways, accepting the conclusions that suit you and dismissing the ones that don't.

If you think any of the parties mentioned in the HSCA might be involved, then your position is fringe nuttery by your own measure.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#753  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jul 30, 2020 1:13 pm

proudfootz wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
Who did the coup, then? Secret service, FBI and CIA is fringe by your own measure.


The House Select Committee didn't identify any particular group as being behind the plot.

It did specifically say that the groups I mentioned were not behind the plot. So if it was a coup, as you seem to think it might be, then who would be involved?

I don't think there's any consensus on the question of the identity of the plotters to be on the fringe of.

It states pretty clearly who wasn't involved. I'm curious who else might be involved that would be of interest rather than just 1 or 2 randos with a beef.


Trying to determine who might be involved in the plot is the sort of thing that motivates people to look into the facts of the case.

The facts of the case are that there's debatable evidence for a second shooter, and apparently zero evidence for a coup from your venerable source, so even if there was another shooter it doesn't seem to change much.

Oswald's associations, as he is one of the accused shooters, is a good place to start looking.

You're welcome to provide any evidence you feel your unimpeachable source may have missed, keeping in mind that you've declared anything outside that fringe nuttery.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#754  Postby felltoearth » Jul 30, 2020 1:31 pm

^This
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Re: JFK Assassination

#755  Postby felltoearth » Jul 30, 2020 1:33 pm

I am always sus about people who can accuse others of being mis/uninformed but when asked a direct question, dodges and weaves and obfuscates. It is highly dishonest and telling.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#756  Postby proudfootz » Jul 31, 2020 8:45 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
felltoearth wrote:Proudfootz seems to be happy to accept their conclusion on the single shooter. I, like SAM, am interested in whether or not he accepts the other conclusions.


The conclusion on the matter of multiple shooters seems solid, with forensic evidence supporting what witnesses observed and filmed evidence from the event.

As far as the HSCA giving a clean bill of health to anyone else I don't know what they based that on.

I'm shocked that you want to have it both ways, accepting the conclusions that suit you and dismissing the ones that don't.


The conspiracy finding is based on forensic science. What is the other finding based on?

If you think any of the parties mentioned in the HSCA might be involved, then your position is fringe nuttery by your own measure.


It's Animavore's measure, as the idea that anyone who 'chips away' at an official account is somehow suspect. I was demonstrating how such authoritarianism leads to self-owns because the 'official account' can change.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#757  Postby proudfootz » Jul 31, 2020 8:52 am

Speaking of dodging and weaving and being unresponsive to direct questions...

proudfootz wrote:
Animavore wrote:The whole Garrison thing in chanpter 2 is ridiculous too. He seemed to think it was all some the plot of some homosexual ring and that some guy named Clay Shaw was jealous of JFK, the "world's most handsome man".

It reads like Pizzagate.


Citation needed for extraordinary claim that Garrison accused Shaw of being jealous of Kennedy.

Thanks in advance! :cheers:


:coffee:
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Re: JFK Assassination

#758  Postby proudfootz » Jul 31, 2020 9:01 am

Thommo wrote:
proudfootz wrote:The conclusion on the matter of multiple shooters seems solid, with forensic evidence supporting what witnesses observed and filmed evidence from the event.


Indeed, there is no physical evidence of a second shooter once you account for the sort of errors described in Linkser and Garwin...


The Linkser and Garwin paper has already been debunked, and it doesn't even try to account for the forensic findings that the recording matches both the timing of the shots as well as the acoustic signature of Dealey Plaza.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#759  Postby proudfootz » Jul 31, 2020 9:08 am

Cito di Pense wrote:
People cling to conspiracy theories precisely in order to heap abuse on skepticism of a pet theory.


That's a nice theory you've got there.

Pardon me if I'm skeptical of such tribalistic pronouncements. :whistle:
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Re: JFK Assassination

#760  Postby Thommo » Jul 31, 2020 9:43 am

proudfootz wrote:
Thommo wrote:
proudfootz wrote:The conclusion on the matter of multiple shooters seems solid, with forensic evidence supporting what witnesses observed and filmed evidence from the event.


Indeed, there is no physical evidence of a second shooter once you account for the sort of errors described in Linkser and Garwin...


The Linkser and Garwin paper has already been debunked, and it doesn't even try to account for the forensic findings that the recording matches both the timing of the shots as well as the acoustic signature of Dealey Plaza.


That's quite simply not true.

It hasn't been "debunked" and extensive sections of it deal with the incorrect assertion that the timing of the set of sounds on the second channel which Thomas suggested were shots could have been simultaneous with Kennedy being shot. In fact it constitutes the majority of the paper and can be summarised in the layman's language previously quoted from the preamble:
This paper identifies serious errors in the Thomas paper and corrects errors in the NRC report. We reaffirm the earlier conclusion of the NRC report that the alleged “shot” sounds were recorded approximately one minute after the assassination.


The route by which this conclusion is reached is the body of the paper and is both technical and in depth. And is in accordance with other linked material, such as that from Michael O'Dell
Thomas argued that if a later instance of crosstalk, ("you want me...") were used to synchronize the two channels then the shots did not appear too late. The NRC explained this apparent difference by pointing out that channel II was sound activated and could easily have stopped between the two crosstalk instances. Thomas did not accept this explanation, believing that a regression chart from the BRSW report proved that channel II did not stop during the interval. If the channel II recording had been continuous then one of the crosstalk instances had to have been displaced on the recording by a jumping recording stylus, or some other cause. Because such a displacement appeared to be the only explanation reconciling the timing data, the synchronization of the Decker crosstalk with the "shots" could no longer rule out the possibility that they were the real shots.
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