JFK Assassination

Lone shooter or conspiracy?

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Re: JFK Assassination

#761  Postby Animavore » Jul 31, 2020 9:50 am

proudfootz wrote:Speaking of dodging and weaving and being unresponsive to direct questions...

proudfootz wrote:
Animavore wrote:The whole Garrison thing in chanpter 2 is ridiculous too. He seemed to think it was all some the plot of some homosexual ring and that some guy named Clay Shaw was jealous of JFK, the "world's most handsome man".

It reads like Pizzagate.


Citation needed for extraordinary claim that Garrison accused Shaw of being jealous of Kennedy.

Thanks in advance! :cheers:


:coffee:

Ah yes, it was Dave Ferrie he said was jealous.

In an effort to get Garrison’s story into focus, I asked him the motive of the Kennedy conspirators. He told me that the murder in Dallas had been a homosexual plot.

“They had the same motive as Loeb and Leopold, when they murdered Bobbie Franks in Chicago back in the twenties,” Garrison said. “It was a homosexual thrill-killing, plus the excitement of getting away with a perfect crime. John Kennedy was everything that Dave Ferrie was not—a successful, handsome, popular, wealthy, virile man. You can just picture the charge Ferrie got out of plotting his death.

I asked how he had learned the murder was a homosexual plot.

“Look at the people involved,” Garrison said. “Dave Ferrie, homosexual, Clay Shaw, homosexual. Jack Ruby, homosexual.”

“Ruby was a homosexual?”

“Sure, we dug that out,” Garrison said. “His homosexual nickname was Pinkie. That’s three. Then there was Lee Harvey Oswald.”

But Oswald was married and had two children, I pointed out.

“A switch-hitter who couldn’t satisfy his wife,” Garrison said. “That’s all in the Warren Report.” He named two more “key figures” whom he labeled homosexual.

“That’s six homosexuals in the plot,” Garrison said. “One or maybe two, okay. But all six homosexuals? How far can you stretch the arm of coincidence?”

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/Litwin_garrison.htm
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Re: JFK Assassination

#762  Postby Animavore » Jul 31, 2020 9:53 am

proudfootz wrote:Speaking of dodging and weaving and being unresponsive to direct questions...



Animavore wrote:

Cool. Can you point me towards material that names the conspirators along with documents and/or recordings of their meetings and interactions as well as motives, please?

Thanks.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#763  Postby proudfootz » Aug 01, 2020 10:23 am

:roll:

Animavore wrote:Can you point me towards material that names the conspirators along with documents and/or recordings of their meetings and interactions as well as motives, please?

Thanks.


Supposing we needed audio recordings or transcripts of a high level meeting among plotters along with confessions of their motives to reasonably conclude there was a conspiracy is ludicrous.

It's certainly not the standard used in courts of law to obtain convictions of conspirators.
Last edited by proudfootz on Aug 01, 2020 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#764  Postby proudfootz » Aug 01, 2020 10:39 am

Thommo wrote:
proudfootz wrote:
Thommo wrote:
proudfootz wrote:The conclusion on the matter of multiple shooters seems solid, with forensic evidence supporting what witnesses observed and filmed evidence from the event.


Indeed, there is no physical evidence of a second shooter once you account for the sort of errors described in Linkser and Garwin...


The Linkser and Garwin paper has already been debunked, and it doesn't even try to account for the forensic findings that the recording matches both the timing of the shots as well as the acoustic signature of Dealey Plaza.


That's quite simply not true.

It hasn't been "debunked" and extensive sections of it deal with the incorrect assertion that the timing of the set of sounds on the second channel which Thomas suggested were shots could have been simultaneous with Kennedy being shot. In fact it constitutes the majority of the paper and can be summarised in the layman's language previously quoted from the preamble:
This paper identifies serious errors in the Thomas paper and corrects errors in the NRC report. We reaffirm the earlier conclusion of the NRC report that the alleged “shot” sounds were recorded approximately one minute after the assassination.


The route by which this conclusion is reached is the body of the paper and is both technical and in depth. And is in accordance with other linked material, such as that from Michael O'Dell
Thomas argued that if a later instance of crosstalk, ("you want me...") were used to synchronize the two channels then the shots did not appear too late. The NRC explained this apparent difference by pointing out that channel II was sound activated and could easily have stopped between the two crosstalk instances. Thomas did not accept this explanation, believing that a regression chart from the BRSW report proved that channel II did not stop during the interval. If the channel II recording had been continuous then one of the crosstalk instances had to have been displaced on the recording by a jumping recording stylus, or some other cause. Because such a displacement appeared to be the only explanation reconciling the timing data, the synchronization of the Decker crosstalk with the "shots" could no longer rule out the possibility that they were the real shots.


Nothing in the Linkser material deals with the acoustic signature of Dealey Plaza which is how the original forensic scientists were able to pinpoint the origins of the shots to locations both in front of and behind the motorcade. That in itself would suggest their theory that the audio records an event at another time and place is inadequate, unless one imagines there was a duplicate Dealey Plaza somewhere in Dallas where an identical shooting took place coincidentally on the same day.

:crazy:
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Re: JFK Assassination

#765  Postby Animavore » Aug 01, 2020 11:50 am

proudfootz wrote::roll:

Animavore wrote:Can you point me towards material that names the conspirators along with documents and/or recordings of their meetings and interactions as well as motives, please?

Thanks.


Supposing we needed audio recordings or transcripts of a high level meeting among plotters along with confessions of their motives to reasonably conclude there was a conspiracy is ludicrous.

It's certainly not the standard used in courts of law to obtain convictions of conspirators.


Is this serious? Are you saying courts can convict people of conspiracy without evidence of involvement in a conspiracy? Like no emails, letters, witnesses or CCTV which puts them with other conspirators, getting caught committing the conspiracy, testimony from other conspirators on a plea bargain, etc.? That a court just has to show there was likely a conspiracy of some sort by people they can't even point to to convict... who would you even convict here?

Is this what you're actually saying?

:eh:
Last edited by Animavore on Aug 01, 2020 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#766  Postby Thommo » Aug 01, 2020 11:51 am

We were discussing the conclusions of the peer reviewed literature. And your assertions that that literature showed that "Linkser and Garwin paper has already been debunked" and that it doesn't even try to account for the forensic findings that the recording matches the timing of the shots.

That is not true, there is no such information in the peer reviewed literature, quite the reverse in fact. Although Thomas stands by his conclusion the literature as a whole, including the opinion of well over a dozen relevantly qualified forensic experts who published on the matter disagrees. If this is not the case we should resolve it in the way we started out - with links to and discussion of the peer reviewed material in question.

On that second point it is true that Thomas claimed to have something like 96% confidence in the conclusion that the sounds matched that of gunshots fired in Dealey plaza, but this is irrelevant to the murder of JFK if the shots took place 30 seconds or a minute after all the wounds were inflicted. Whilst 4% isn't a particularly low chance that needs to be disputed, it is not at all uncommon for published research to report findings with less than 5% chance of being due to the null hypothesis and yet lead to wrong conclusions. This actually happens in the majority of published research anyway.

Experts in the field chose not to pursue this line of enquiry since they had proved the alleged shot sounds did not take place when Kennedy was killed regardless. If you're particularly interested there has been further analysis of the location of the motorbike recording the channel 1 sounds which does not concur with it being in Dealey plaza at the time anyway, e.g. https://thekennedyhalfcentury.com/pdf/K ... search.pdf
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Re: JFK Assassination

#767  Postby JustStarDust » Aug 03, 2020 7:36 pm

I wasted so much time with that pdf, and trying to match the footage. Timed from the 'start' of the transcript on page 16-17.


Skip to 1:35 for further details? Idk. It's probably totally wrong, as the tapes are not all the same speed - but who cares to actually make the audio a consistent speed? Not my job, sorry.

And some say the gun was this thing: (from James Files info) - which is apparently, almost silent?
Image


1:05 to hear a shot. The guy in the video is wearing ear protectors, so obviously not silent.
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Re: JFK Assassination

#768  Postby Basset Hound » Sep 29, 2020 1:04 am

Also, it's come out what Jack Ruby said to Lee Harvey Oswald just before he shot him. "You dumb son of a bitch, you shot the wrong Kennedy."
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