The planned Economic Collapse of the US

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The planned Economic Collapse of the US

#1  Postby Wuffy » Nov 05, 2012 5:43 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyjdGu-VRhI[/youtube]

Enjoy the Crazy, and the music will probably melt your brain enough for this to make sense. :popcorn:

By the way. 2... LONG hours... So Better be ready for this one.
I couldn't make it very far.

Who's got the brain of Iron to resist this?
:drunk:
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Re: The planned Economic Collapse of the US

#2  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Nov 05, 2012 7:22 am

The one comfort I have in life is the fact that there is no governmental organization that is competent or organized enough to pull off the type of conspiracies that are consistently attributed to them.

Hanlon's Razor wrote:Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence.
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Re: The planned Economic Collapse of the US

#3  Postby psikeyhackr » Nov 16, 2012 5:37 pm

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence.


It is 43 years after the Moon landing. The economics profession cannot compute and report the depreciation of all of the automobiles in each country.

Have they ever heard of planned obsolescence?

Does planned obsolescence contribute to CO2 production?

Coordinated stupidity.

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Re: The planned Economic Collapse of the US

#4  Postby tolman » Nov 17, 2012 2:12 pm

CdesignProponentsist wrote:The one comfort I have in life is the fact that there is no governmental organization that is competent or organized enough to pull off the type of conspiracies that are consistently attributed to them.

Though typically when it comes to conspiracies, not only are the plans overelaborate, but they're also at an intellectual level easy to imagine by the average conspiracy theorist, and frequently have planning details which are all somehow accessible to an average (or even below-average) citizen.

Secrecy and Evil Geniuses seem to be in remarkably short supply.
I don't do sarcasm smileys, but someone as bright as you has probably figured that out already.
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Re: The planned Economic Collapse of the US

#5  Postby Arjan Dirkse » Nov 27, 2012 7:44 pm

tolman wrote:
CdesignProponentsist wrote:The one comfort I have in life is the fact that there is no governmental organization that is competent or organized enough to pull off the type of conspiracies that are consistently attributed to them.

Though typically when it comes to conspiracies, not only are the plans overelaborate, but they're also at an intellectual level easy to imagine by the average conspiracy theorist, and frequently have planning details which are all somehow accessible to an average (or even below-average) citizen.

Secrecy and Evil Geniuses seem to be in remarkably short supply.


Well, that doesn't mean those conspiracies aren't true, it just implies that there are probably many more conspiracies by the real evil geniuses, but that we'll never hear about those because they're too well hidden. :shhh:
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Re: The planned Economic Collapse of the US

#6  Postby tolman » Nov 27, 2012 8:12 pm

Or that the ones the conspiracy nuts talk about aren't real conspiracies, but piss-taking fake theories (planes which people saw but which were nonetheless actually missiles, demolition of buildings planned as an excuse for war when a similar death toll and equal shock value could have been reliably achieved with vastly simpler alternative plans, Prince Philip being the mastermind behind an MI6 plan to assassinate Diana in an uncontrolled road environment with media in hot pursuit, etc) dreamed up by the Evil Geniuses for the consumption of the Untermensch, and the general ridiculing of the idea of conspiracies.
I don't do sarcasm smileys, but someone as bright as you has probably figured that out already.
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Re: The planned Economic Collapse of the US

#7  Postby Minimolas » Nov 28, 2012 6:13 am

Not all conspiracies are ridiculous, but Satan worshiping pedophile globalists are controlling the government, at least Alex Jones tells me they are. :roll:

The one thing I can't get past about 9/11 is WTC 7, there's not way it burned down due to fire, logic says that WTC 7 was a demolition, but I suppose this is the wrong thread.
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Re: The planned Economic Collapse of the US

#8  Postby Wuffy » Nov 28, 2012 6:52 am

Yeah that would be this thread... and it's older cousin...

Feel free to read up... Hope you have a week.

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/consp ... t6310.html
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Re: The planned Economic Collapse of the US

#9  Postby tolman » Nov 28, 2012 1:22 pm

Minimolas wrote:The one thing I can't get past about 9/11 is WTC 7, there's not way it burned down due to fire, logic says that WTC 7 was a demolition, but I suppose this is the wrong thread.

Logic has to be based on sufficient understanding of relevant aspects of reality.

In that case, a good enough understanding of engineering in general and the building in particular to enable someone to be aware of the possible failure modes of the structure when damaged.

Logic doesn't include people trying to scale up 'common sense' ideas of how much smaller structures behave unless they have a serious understanding of what does and doesn't simply scale when it comes to modelling.

Nor does it include looking at how a building collapses after collapse starts, comparing that with how buildings being demolished collapse after collapse starts, and concluding that the causes of collapse must be the same - that would be indulging in a logical fallacy.

One might think that 'common sense' would suggest that if it was 'obviously not possible' for the collapses to have had plane impacts and fires as their causes, the people who best understand such structures would have been crying foul in large numbers right from the start.

Many conspiracy theories require large numbers of such people to have been bribed or intimidated into silence, strangely without any having reported that to have happened.
But that's classic conspiracy-theory logic - the conspiracy somehow knows [i]in advance[/i] that its attempts to co-opt or coerce people, many of whom would be expected to be entirely opposed to its aims and methods, will be successful to a frankly unbelievable extent.
Which seems to suggest typical conspiracy theorists have a shockingly low opinion of the honesty and bravery of pretty much anyone apart from themselves.
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Re: The planned Economic Collapse of the US

#10  Postby InsaneRobot » Dec 13, 2012 11:11 pm

tolman wrote:
CdesignProponentsist wrote:The one comfort I have in life is the fact that there is no governmental organization that is competent or organized enough to pull off the type of conspiracies that are consistently attributed to them.

Though typically when it comes to conspiracies, not only are the plans overelaborate, but they're also at an intellectual level easy to imagine by the average conspiracy theorist, and frequently have planning details which are all somehow accessible to an average (or even below-average) citizen.

tolman wrote:Many conspiracy theories require large numbers of such people to have been bribed or intimidated into silence, strangely without any having reported that to have happened.
But that's classic conspiracy-theory logic - the conspiracy somehow knows [i]in advance[/i] that its attempts to co-opt or coerce people, many of whom would be expected to be entirely opposed to its aims and methods, will be successful to a frankly unbelievable extent.
Which seems to suggest typical conspiracy theorists have a shockingly low opinion of the honesty and bravery of pretty much anyone apart from themselves.

A lot of the problems with conspiracies make more sense if you think of the theorists working backwards to get to their point.
For example, we can take a look at the Moon Landing Conspiracy as done by the reverse Scientific Method:
Now, let's assume someone just watched the Moon Landing on live TV, and they have trouble believing such a thing is possible. And so they start with...
1) A Conclusion (the moon landing was faked) that is used for the basis of their argument. Since they know people aren't going to believe them without evidence they...
2) Examine the data (the moon landing tapes) for evidence of things that support their conclusion (the flag was waving) and make sure to...
3) Use scientifically tested information (flags on earth wave because of wind, there should be no wind on the Moon) that conflicts with the data, and...
4) Make a prediction/hypothesis (it was due to air conditioning) that supports the conclusion.
5) Only then can they ask questions, such as "how did they get that kind of secrecy?"
It's not a perfect model, but I feel it gets my point across. The priorities are messed up.

So if you look at them working backwards, it makes sense why they would assume the government was willing to spend 250 years in secrecy planning to overthrow itself even though was chosen democratically by the people to protect itself, or how it was even capable of such a thing. They start with the assumption that the big thing happens, and never bother to explain all the little things that would be required for the big thing to happen. Probably because they think they've already proven that the big thing happens. If the data contradicts their conclusion, the data must be wrong/tampered with.

This sort of backwards thinking is sort of shown in this sort of comment:
Minimolas wrote:The one thing I can't get past about 9/11 is WTC 7

It seems reasonable at first, there's an anomaly that current explanations are insufficient, but therein lies the problem. If there's just one issue that remains unexplained, then obviously we don't have enough information on that issue. Even if all the things about the conspiracy theory or whatever are totally true, the fact remains that a conspiracy on that level would collapse unless the government is secretly more competent than would be expected. I've never heard a conspiracy theorist explain how the government managed to get past all the scientists who would speak up or news organizations who would cover all the obvious facts when the very same government never been shown to even have control over their own group in much less crucial matters. Wouldn't we expect just one of the many people who were in on it to be a spy, or have a sense of human decency?

It's not even that I'm denying the 9/11 conspiracy. It certainly has more evidence than other theories I've heard of and would probably involve less cover-up as well, but I can't help but think that the people who are involved are looking at the big picture without realising that all the pixels need to be there as well.
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Re: The planned Economic Collapse of the US

#11  Postby tolman » Dec 14, 2012 12:04 am

InsaneRobot wrote:A lot of the problems with conspiracies make more sense if you think of the theorists working backwards to get to their point.

Oh, I can understand the ass-backwards reasoning involved, and why it results in stupid arguments.
Such as the classic one where someone assumes a conclusion, looks for things consistent with the conclusion but then never turns round and asks whether those things are consistent with anything else, whether because they don't think of doing so, or because they assume some exclusivity of cause/effect links.

Hence a building collapses in a similar way to buildings which are demolished, therefore that proves demolition.
Either they don't try to ask whether the evidence is consistent with other explanations, or they take an exclusive (and plainly stupid) view that evidence consistent with explanation X is evidence against all other explanations by default, or take the view that even if evidence is consistent with multiple explanations, if it is consistent with their explanation that is still somehow evidence in their favour even if it is evidence which points nowhere.

Somewhat like 'religious evidence' in favour of deities in general or a specific one in particular.

InsaneRobot wrote:Even if all the things about the conspiracy theory or whatever are totally true, the fact remains that a conspiracy on that level would collapse unless the government is secretly more competent than would be expected. I've never heard a conspiracy theorist explain how the government managed to get past all the scientists who would speak up or news organizations who would cover all the obvious facts when the very same government never been shown to even have control over their own group in much less crucial matters. Wouldn't we expect just one of the many people who were in on it to be a spy, or have a sense of human decency?

Yet the Great Conspiracy can not only manage the difficult task of enforcing such secrecy, but can also be supremely confident in advance that it can press-gang people at will and not have any of them talk - it's not a case of it just managing to pull off the secrecy, but of being so fantastic at it that it can confidently predict success.

And yet such a conspiracy is also supposed to come up with (and approve) some of the most ridiculously convoluted, bodged-together, expensive, risky and overcomplicated plans imaginable, typically with little or no obvious benefit over far simpler ones.
Plans which the most unhinged Bond villain would be expected to piss their pants laughing at.

And they're supposedly doing it to 'get power' or 'get money' while also apparently already being some of the most powerful people on Earth, who have entire governments under their control, and who have had decades, if not centuries, in which to line their pockets with money filched from one or other treasury.

If I had the power to fake 9/11 and cover it up afterwards, why would I need to fight a bogus war?
To [somehow] get more power?
Power to do what which I couldn't do already?

As for moon landing conspiracies, who was it who said that it'd be fun to go to a conspiracy meeting, find someone who says we couldn't have gone to the moon because we didn't have the technology, and someone else who says Area 51 is full of advanced alien space tech, and let them fight it out?
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Re: The planned Economic Collapse of the US

#12  Postby InsaneRobot » Dec 14, 2012 4:06 am

tolman wrote:Oh, I can understand the ass-backwards reasoning involved, and why it results in stupid arguments.
I didn't really mean it to be "ass-backwards". Just regular backwards. Ass-backwards reasoning is involved, but I meant it more as a neat observation of how they start big and go small. You might have worked that out too a while ago, but I was pretty smug when the idea first came to me. :tongue:

The rest of your post is just agreeing with me so there's really nothing to respond to there.
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Re: The planned Economic Collapse of the US

#13  Postby psikeyhackr » Feb 08, 2013 3:23 pm

I just learned about Keynes commenting on 2030 a few days ago.

In the long run we are all dead, but not all at the same time. Keynes’ message was simple: extrapolate conservatively the economic growth rate of the modern age so far, and imagine the wonders one hundred years hence: 2030. His audience would not live to see it, but many of their grandchildren would. The great-grandchildren, born in the last quarter of the twentieth century, would climb a stairway to heaven and bask in unknown pleasures from middle age. The generation after that would be born into paradise.

In the best traditions of science fiction, the author fudged the precise workings of the technology behind the wonders. Keynes evidently had little growth theory to draw on: he talks in monetary terms of the wonders of compound interest. Investments simply grow at around 2 percent a year – ask not why. Technology improves, for an improvement in “technical efficiency” of 1 percent a year. Making generous room for more of the “disastrous mistakes” that had brought forth the depression, he predicted that living standards would “in the progressive countries” be four to eight times higher a century on. There would be a phase of “technological unemployment” as labor productivity outpaced the finding of new uses for labor, but ultimately we would work out how to spread the dividends so that everyone worked an average of three hours a day.

http://jacobinmag.com/2012/04/keynes-jetpack/

If economists had been saying that accounting should be mandatory in the schools and harping on planned obsolescence for the last 50 years what would the current state of the economy be?

But the ENIAC was announced in 1946, the year Keynes died. What has it and can it do to/for the economy?

That is alternate history science fiction.

Cost of Living (1952) by Robert Sheckley
https://senjibqa.wordpress.com/2011/06/ ... of-living/

Subversive (1962) by Reynolds Mack
http://www.digilibraries.com/ebook/115574/Subversive/

But now the Internet gives all of the peons the ability to share information. Are we going to talk bullsh!t?

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Re: The planned Economic Collapse of the US

#14  Postby psikeyhackr » Feb 09, 2013 3:50 pm

psikeyhackr wrote:I just learned about Keynes commenting on 2030 a few days ago.


http://www.econ.yale.edu/smith/econ116a/keynes1.pdf

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