The Vaccine Hoax is Over: 30 Years of Coverup

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Re: The Vaccine Hoax is Over: 30 Years of Coverup

#61  Postby the_5th_ape » May 15, 2013 5:05 pm

Weaver wrote:
the_5th_ape wrote:
Weaver wrote:Please give direct citations to where each of those organizations says that vaccines carry more risk than benefit.

Sorry, I am not gonna do the digging work for you.

Crap - you are making the claim, it is up to you to back up your assertions.

Dishonest debate - as usual.

Oh really? You first asked for peer reviewed papers, and so i dug up the links and gave it to you. And you(and your folks) did not even bother to RESPOND. And now you talk to me about honesty? :lol:
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Re: The Vaccine Hoax is Over: 30 Years of Coverup

#62  Postby Weaver » May 15, 2013 5:08 pm

Nobody here is "my folks" - though I do recall some responding by pointing out where some of the peer-reviewed links you posted said the opposite of what you claimed they said.

So - are you going to start discussing this honestly, and backing up your assertions with hard links, or are you going to keep bullshitting your way through an indefensible position with irrelevancies and false accusations?
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Re: The Vaccine Hoax is Over: 30 Years of Coverup

#63  Postby BlackBart » May 15, 2013 5:25 pm

Oh, go on then, I'll do another...


Journal of the American Medical Association



Immunization has been one of the most successful public health advances of the century. Very few persons living in the United States are now hurt by or die from vaccine-preventable diseases.

Unfortunately, the immense success of immunization in America has lulled many parents and legislators into complacency with regard to vaccine-preventable diseases like measles, meningitis, polio and diphtheria.


http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/physici ... urces.page?
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Re: The Vaccine Hoax is Over: 30 Years of Coverup

#64  Postby Weaver » May 15, 2013 5:32 pm

Apparently he's not coming back to defend this - he's moved on to claiming that HIV doesn't cause AIDS in yet another stunning example of pigeon-chess argumentation.
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Re: The Vaccine Hoax is Over: 30 Years of Coverup

#65  Postby Varangian » May 15, 2013 8:19 pm

the_5th_ape wrote:double post


Your best and most insightful yet.
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Re: The Vaccine Hoax is Over: 30 Years of Coverup

#66  Postby Varangian » May 15, 2013 8:23 pm

the_5th_ape wrote:wtf, i got my posts interchanged


No, I think it is the same crap you usually post. Couldn't tell the difference.
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Re: The Vaccine Hoax is Over: 30 Years of Coverup

#67  Postby tolman » May 26, 2013 9:08 pm

Weaver wrote:Apparently he's not coming back to defend this - he's moved on to claiming that HIV doesn't cause AIDS in yet another stunning example of pigeon-chess argumentation.

Does he ever do anything other than spread pathetic and dishonest stories?

Seriously, what kind of individual would get their kicks from doing something like that?
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Re: The Vaccine Hoax is Over: 30 Years of Coverup

#68  Postby GrahamH » May 26, 2013 9:32 pm

Fallible wrote:
the_5th_ape wrote:
Blackadder wrote:
Weaver wrote:No one has ever claimed that vaccines are completely without risk of negative effects in isolated, rare cases.

What is clearly acknowledged, by honest reporters, is that these negative effects are RARE, and the risk is FAR outweighed by the benefits of the vaccine.


Exactly. All medical procedures carry some element of risk, however small. Pretty much every human activity carries some risk but we learn to live with the risks when they are clearly outweighed by the benefits.


Yes, but nowdays vaccines carry more risks than benefits :book:


Says who?

Ignoring the conspiracy Bullocks, isn't it the case that 100% vaccination would likely reduce the chance of getting the target disease to less than the risks from side effects? Obviously this is no reason to stop vaccinations.
Do vaccination programs seek to balance these risks?
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Re: The Vaccine Hoax is Over: 30 Years of Coverup

#69  Postby tolman » May 26, 2013 10:43 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Fallible wrote:
the_5th_ape wrote:Yes, but nowdays vaccines carry more risks than benefits :book:

Says who?

Ignoring the conspiracy Bullocks, isn't it the case that 100% vaccination would likely reduce the chance of getting the target disease to less than the risks from side effects? Obviously this is no reason to stop vaccinations.
Do vaccination programs seek to balance these risks?

It's also clearly a completely different point to the supposed original one.
Someone being a leech in some modern societies, failing to get vaccinated for no real medical reason, while relying on the lack of disease due to other people being vaccinated, could potentially in some circumstances be in the best position, having no risk of any possible negative vaccine side-effects while being unlikely to catch the relevant diseases, though in reality such circumstances might be rarer than some leeches would like.

And, of course, they are relying not merely on vaccines actually working, but on there not being too many other leeches or miseducated anti-vaxxers around, since if there are too many of them, the disease might kick off and put them at risk of infection again.
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Re: The Vaccine Hoax is Over: 30 Years of Coverup

#70  Postby GrahamH » May 27, 2013 8:09 am

tolman wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Fallible wrote:
the_5th_ape wrote:Yes, but nowdays vaccines carry more risks than benefits :book:

Says who?

Ignoring the conspiracy Bullocks, isn't it the case that 100% vaccination would likely reduce the chance of getting the target disease to less than the risks from side effects? Obviously this is no reason to stop vaccinations.
Do vaccination programs seek to balance these risks?

It's also clearly a completely different point to the supposed original one.
Someone being a leech in some modern societies, failing to get vaccinated for no real medical reason, while relying on the lack of disease due to other people being vaccinated, could potentially in some circumstances be in the best position, having no risk of any possible negative vaccine side-effects while being unlikely to catch the relevant diseases, though in reality such circumstances might be rarer than some leeches would like.

And, of course, they are relying not merely on vaccines actually working, but on there not being too many other leeches or miseducated anti-vaxxers around, since if there are too many of them, the disease might kick off and put them at risk of infection again.


My point relates to the orginal post in that when there is low risk of infections, due to effective vaccination, low-incidence side effects may become more common than the disease. Of course vaccination must be maintained to keep infection risk so low. Comparison of risks at that stage could be misleading, and is used by anti-vaxers.
In relative terms the side effects become more significant as vaccination rise past "herd immunity" levels. Somewhere in the last 10% there will be a cross-over where diminishing returns on immunity are exceeded by linearly increasing risk of side effects.

100% vaccination may not be the greatest good. Maybe the ideal is 97% :scratch:

Any epidemiologists here?
Why do you think that?
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Re: The Vaccine Hoax is Over: 30 Years of Coverup

#71  Postby Pebble » May 27, 2013 8:39 am

Not an epidemiologist, but no vaccine program aims for 100% coverage, I have to find the references but I seem to remember that the desired coverage is 90-95%, there will always be individuals that cannot mount an immune response, and those with serious intolerances - where the risk benefit ratio does not work.

But the principle you are advancing works. When the disease is common the risk benefit ratio massively favours vaccination as the diseases is driven toward extinction the risk benefit ratio may even reverse - so then the issue is one of public health and it is easy for individuals to argue that they feel uncomfortable consenting on behalf of their children to any increase in risk. Of course this is a very short term strategy since they are also consenting to continued risk exposure of all future generations.
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Re: The Vaccine Hoax is Over: 30 Years of Coverup

#72  Postby tolman » May 27, 2013 1:43 pm

Pebble wrote:When the disease is common the risk benefit ratio massively favours vaccination as the diseases is driven toward extinction the risk benefit ratio may even reverse - so then the issue is one of public health and it is easy for individuals to argue that they feel uncomfortable consenting on behalf of their children to any increase in risk. Of course this is a very short term strategy since they are also consenting to continued risk exposure of all future generations.

Personally I would have far more respect for someone who was doing that for reasons other than specific medical ones if they had both the understanding and honesty to admit that that was actually what they were doing - pursuing a strategy which, when it does work, only works due to the presence of widespread vaccination and which is therefore not a stable strategy since it is effectively parasitic in nature.
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Re: The Vaccine Hoax is Over: 30 Years of Coverup

#73  Postby Pebble » May 27, 2013 3:38 pm

tolman wrote:
Pebble wrote:When the disease is common the risk benefit ratio massively favours vaccination as the diseases is driven toward extinction the risk benefit ratio may even reverse - so then the issue is one of public health and it is easy for individuals to argue that they feel uncomfortable consenting on behalf of their children to any increase in risk. Of course this is a very short term strategy since they are also consenting to continued risk exposure of all future generations.

Personally I would have far more respect for someone who was doing that for reasons other than specific medical ones if they had both the understanding and honesty to admit that that was actually what they were doing - pursuing a strategy which, when it does work, only works due to the presence of widespread vaccination and which is therefore not a stable strategy since it is effectively parasitic in nature.


Not sure I can follow the last sentence. Parasitic how? The risks are very low, even if they in some instances exceed the benefit to the individual, and the consequences of failing to eradicate or keep to a very low level nasty infectious diseases are very severe. If we could quarantine populations once the disease had been eradicated in one area, this problems would be overcome easily - but most people would prefer freedom of movement even if there are some risks involved.
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Re: The Vaccine Hoax is Over: 30 Years of Coverup

#74  Postby tolman » May 27, 2013 5:23 pm

Pebble wrote:Not sure I can follow the last sentence. Parasitic how?

Well, quite mildly parasitic.
From the perspective of the average person, the unvaccinated-by choice person basing their decision on a cost-benefit analysis in a generally vaccinated population where infection is suppressed gains meaningful (and often quite valuable) protection as a result of them being in the population they are in, while their choice is helping to increase the risks to everyone (including people who cannot be vaccinated, and people who are vaccinated but remain vulnerable).
That would seem somewhat parasitic - gaining a benefit by a choice while imposing a cost on others.

It is a bit muddied in that as long as enough people are vaccinated, the cost might not materialise, but equally it would be hard to say the behaviour was 'cost-free' right up to the point where too many people indulged in it and the consequences appeared, since that would be close to saying that in general, taking a risk with other people's welfare was fine except in the cases where something actually went wrong.
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Re: The Vaccine Hoax is Over: 30 Years of Coverup

#75  Postby Pebble » May 27, 2013 7:01 pm

OK now I understand. You are correct of course, such people are relying on others taking the risks - however small. In reality this point is cherry picked from analyses of risk benefit ratio undertaken to determine when one should stop vaccination campaigns, and then used to support an apriori belief that vaccination is bad and the government is trying to poison everyone, working in league with bad pharma.
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Re: The Vaccine Hoax is Over: 30 Years of Coverup

#76  Postby Calilasseia » Jun 06, 2013 8:14 am

As an example of the disingenuous nature of the anti-vax woo campaigners, they loudly proclaimed that vaccines "caused" autistic spectrum conditions, despite a raft of peer reviewed papers pointing to an entirely different biological basis. In particular, they claimed that thimerosal, used as a preservative in vaccines, was somehow "causing" these conditions.

Just one problem. If their hypothesis had been correct, then the moment thimerosal was removed from vaccines, we should have seen a decrease in childhood autistic spectrum diagnoses, starting from the date when thimerosal was removed. Denmark banned thimerosal in vaccines some years ago, yet childhood autistic spectrum diagnoses have continued to rise despite this, destroying any assertions that there exists a causal link between the two. Yet the anti-vaxers still continue peddling their lethal pseudoscience and duplicitous apologetics.

EDIT: A relevant peer reviewed paper is this one, comparing the outcomes in children who received a vaccine containing thimerosal, and a vaccine in which thimerosal was absent.

Context Mercuric compounds are nephrotoxic and neurotoxic at high doses. Thimerosal, a preservative used widely in vaccine formulations, contains ethylmercury. Thus it has been suggested that childhood vaccination with thimerosal-containing vaccine could be causally related to neurodevelopmental disorders such as autism.

Objective To determine whether vaccination with a thimerosal-containing vaccine is associated with development of autism.

Design, Setting, and Participants Population-based cohort study of all children born in Denmark from January 1, 1990, until December 31, 1996 (N = 467 450) comparing children vaccinated with a thimerosal-containing vaccine with children vaccinated with a thimerosal-free formulation of the same vaccine.

Main Outcome Measures Rate ratio (RR) for autism and other autistic-spectrum disorders, including trend with dose of ethylmercury.

Results During 2 986 654 person-years, we identified 440 autism cases and 787 cases of other autistic-spectrum disorders. The risk of autism and other autistic-spectrum disorders did not differ significantly between children vaccinated with thimerosal-containing vaccine and children vaccinated with thimerosal-free vaccine (RR, 0.85 [95% confidence interval {CI}, 0.60-1.20] for autism; RR, 1.12 [95% CI, 0.88-1.43] for other autistic-spectrum disorders). Furthermore, we found no evidence of a dose-response association (increase in RR per 25 µg of ethylmercury, 0.98 [95% CI, 0.90-1.06] for autism and 1.03 [95% CI, 0.98-1.09] for other autistic-spectrum disorders).

Conclusion The results do not support a causal relationship between childhood vaccination with thimerosal-containing vaccines and development of autistic-spectrum disorders.

High doses of mercuric compounds are nephrotoxic and neurotoxic.1 Thimerosal, an organic compound that contains ethylmercury, has been widely used since the 1930s as a preservative in certain vaccines. In the 1990s, an increasing number of different vaccines containing thimerosal were introduced in immunization schedules around the world, and thus the average cumulative exposure to thimerosal in infants has increased in recent years. This has led to the suggestion that childhood vaccination with thimerosal-containing vaccines increases the risk of neurodevelopmental disorders, such as autism, attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, and language and speech delay.

In a recent independent review conducted by the Immunization Safety Committee, on behalf of the Institute of Medicine, it was concluded that the evidence was inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccine and neurodevelopmental disorders.2 However, based on comparison with the toxicology of methylmercury, the biological plausibility of a link remained. Further research was recommended. We examined the hypothesized association by comparing children vaccinated with a thimerosal-containing pertussis vaccine with children vaccinated with the same pertussis vaccine formulated without thimerosal and following them with respect to development of autism and other autistic-spectrum disorders.


Full paper downloadable from here.

From that paper, we learn:

In our cohort, only 20755 (4.4%) children did not receive any whole-cell pertussis vaccine, 446695 (95.6%) were vaccinated at least once, 416081 (89.0%) were vaccinated twice, and 293 186 (62.7%) received 3 doses of whole-cell pertussis vaccine. Among those who received at least 1 thimerosal—containing pertussis vaccine (n= 138953), 118593 received 1 subsequent dose and 65725 received 2 subsequent doses of thimerosal-containing vaccine. Furthermore, 42032 children who received at least 1 dose of thimerosal—containing vaccine subsequently received at least 1 dose of thimerosal-free vaccine. In those receiving at least 1 dose of whole-cell pertussis vaccine, there were 407 cases of autism (303 receiving thimerosal-free and 104 receiving thimerosal—containing vaccine) and 751 cases of other autistic spectrum disorders (430 receiving thimerosal-free and 321 receiving thimerosal-containing vaccine).


If the anti-vaxers' assertions bore any connection to reality, the figures should have been wildly divergent from this.
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Re: The Vaccine Hoax is Over: 30 Years of Coverup

#77  Postby Weaver » Jun 06, 2013 12:35 pm

That's why they shifted from blaming thimerosal (which was used in only some countries, yet there was a matching rise in ASD in those nations that never used it) to blaming "too many, too fast" - another BS claim with no supporting evidence whatsoever, but harder to directly challenge.

Of course, if you DON'T give the vaccines on the proper schedule, children fucking die horrible, preventable deaths - but I guess that someone else's kids dying is a price Jenny McCarthy is willing to pay.
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Re: The Vaccine Hoax is Over: 30 Years of Coverup

#79  Postby Alan C » Jul 23, 2020 11:14 pm

I'm dredging this one up due to what seems to be the current wackjob nonsense that is Bill Gates allegedly going to microchip people through covid-19 vaccinations.

Putting aside the idea that he would even do such a thing I'm not sure it's even technically possible. I can't conceive of the notion, given current technologies that I know of, that someone could produce a chip that can do all this yet be tiny enough to be injectable as part of a vaccine shot.
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Re: The Vaccine Hoax is Over: 30 Years of Coverup

#80  Postby theropod_V_2.0 » Jul 23, 2020 11:23 pm

Lizard alien overlords have given the illuminate the nano tech to carry out Bill’s scheme.

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ETA: That is how sarcasm is done. Over the top and obvious.
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