Punctuated Equilibrium
Moderators: kiore, Blip, The_Metatron
Darwinsbulldog wrote:The irony in the Dawkins-Gould debate is that they were both right. Evolution is gradual, and can also be rapid. It really depends when and where you look.
epepke wrote:Darwinsbulldog wrote:The irony in the Dawkins-Gould debate is that they were both right. Evolution is gradual, and can also be rapid. It really depends when and where you look.
They were both right, by Dawkins' perception. Dawkins was the one who kept going on about how gradualism wasn't the same as constant speedism, which is an excellent point. Gould, however, behaved as if PE were something newly discovered, amazing, and qualitatively different. He never quite admitted that he was talking about saltations, and he used to sputter a lot when accused of it, but he behaved as if in his heart of hearts he did mean something like that, something truly amazing and completely different.
From my point of view, he was engaging any self-aggrandizing academic hype.
Zadocfish2 wrote:As I read some of the materials linked to from this site, namely this one: http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/part ... ution.html . In it, it mentions a fact that I would assume is very common in Creationist literature: quote-mining scientists arguing about the differences between Punctuated Equilibrium vs Gradual Descent, and putting forth that proponents of the latter are denying evolution as a whole.
Now, to be honest, as much as I love biology and evolutionary biology as a whole, I mostly only know anything about the Gradual Descent model. To better understand what is being discussed in this article and others, and as a reference for any Creationist users this site may have, can someone explain or post a link explaining how the Punctuated Equilibrium model is thought to work?
Lowpro wrote:Dumb question. Does anyone know how Gould's PE meshed with Sewell Wright's statistical models for genetic flow? If I were exposed to those models before PE I would have thought PE to be inevitable, yet iirc PE was proposed later.
Spearthrower wrote:Zadocfish2 wrote:As I read some of the materials linked to from this site, namely this one: http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/part ... ution.html . In it, it mentions a fact that I would assume is very common in Creationist literature: quote-mining scientists arguing about the differences between Punctuated Equilibrium vs Gradual Descent, and putting forth that proponents of the latter are denying evolution as a whole.
Now, to be honest, as much as I love biology and evolutionary biology as a whole, I mostly only know anything about the Gradual Descent model. To better understand what is being discussed in this article and others, and as a reference for any Creationist users this site may have, can someone explain or post a link explaining how the Punctuated Equilibrium model is thought to work?
Odd! Usually Creationists leap on punctuated equilibria as scientific jargon for the days of creation!
Punctuated equilibrium just means that species will exhibit little morphological change over long periods of environmental stasis, but will change rapidly, geologically speaking, when encountering new niches or facing new environmental challenges.
Creationists willfully misinterpret this along the lines of Richard Goldschmidt's 'Hopeful Monster', where dramatic evolutionary changes occur in just one generation - think Crocoducks. Basically, Creationists manage to simultaneously argue that this pokemon form of evolution is how scientists erroneously define evolution, and also declare that this is actually what is seen in the fossil record.
This exposes how Creationists ignorantly perceive scientific theories as loose threads which they just have to pull on to unravel. Consistency isn't important, it's the undermining of an evolutionary account that matters.
In recent years, biologists have increasingly recognized that evolutionary change can occur rapidly when natural selection is strong; thus, real-time studies of evolution can be used to test classic evolutionary hypotheses directly. One such hypothesis is that negative interactions between closely related species can drive phenotypic divergence. Such divergence is thought to be ubiquitous, though well-documented cases are surprisingly rare. On small islands in Florida, we found that the lizard Anolis carolinensis moved to higher perches following invasion by Anolis sagrei and, in response, adaptively evolved larger toepads after only 20 generations. These results illustrate that interspecific interactions between closely related species can drive evolutionary change on observable time scales.
Stuart, Y. E., et al.
Darwinsbulldog wrote:I think both men were prim a-donnas!
Not exactly a rare trait among professors, especially with a public profile. I think both men straw-manned each other's arguments to some degree. And what they didn't straw-man, the media did. The fact is that [even after controlling for artifacts caused by scaling, he demonstrated clear evidence of PE is the fossil record of some mollusc groups. And in Ontogeny and Phylogeny he more or less predicted the discoveries of evo-devo.
Likewise Dawkins Gene-Centered approach undoubtedly paid dividends as well.
But the extended synthesis takes care of all these issues, including epigenetics.
Spearthrower wrote:One thing's for sure: their scuffles were positively Queensbury in comparison to the generational feuds in palaeontology and biological anthropology. I can imagine murder being done over the classification of a fibula.
epepke wrote:Spearthrower wrote:One thing's for sure: their scuffles were positively Queensbury in comparison to the generational feuds in palaeontology and biological anthropology. I can imagine murder being done over the classification of a fibula.
And linguistics. But, yeah, during the 1980s you could hardly walk a quadrangle without being hit by a rock thrown by a cladist or a pheneticist.
Deremensis wrote:I like to imagine a fantasy-esque "war of the academics"
Gray haired professors shuffling through the gates and clambering over the walls of universities, throwing textbooks, chalk, and writing utensils at one another while shouting incomprehensibly about one inpronounceable theory or another.
Darwinsbulldog wrote:@ epepke:-
So I think that plurality of theory in biology is not something that should worry people. The different "schools" will investigate different research programs and turn up different [often conflicting] evidence. For the foreseeable future at least, biology will tend to be messy in some respects.
Deremensis wrote:epepke wrote:Spearthrower wrote:One thing's for sure: their scuffles were positively Queensbury in comparison to the generational feuds in palaeontology and biological anthropology. I can imagine murder being done over the classification of a fibula.
And linguistics. But, yeah, during the 1980s you could hardly walk a quadrangle without being hit by a rock thrown by a cladist or a pheneticist.
I like to imagine a fantasy-esque "war of the academics"
Gray haired professors shuffling through the gates and clambering over the walls of universities, throwing textbooks, chalk, and writing utensils at one another while shouting incomprehensibly about one inpronounceable theory or another.
Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest