Behe declares victory on all fronts

Apparent evidence for ID

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#81  Postby TopCat » Jan 26, 2015 3:43 pm

Shrunk wrote:But, really, what motivation is there for him to correctly understand these concepts or, if he does understand them, to publicly admit that his claims have been disproven?

Well this is the thing. They've got so much invested in their position that the drive to preserve it must be enormous. As my mum, with no scientific education at all, used to say to me when I was 18 and had my head up my own arse, "for someone as intelligent as you, you can be incredibly stupid". How right she was, but it made no difference at the time.

Does Behe have tenure at Lehigh? I mean, to have something like this on your Department web site is jawdropping.

Can they really not get rid of him?

How can the guy be so shameless as to show up every day?
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#82  Postby Shrunk » Jan 26, 2015 3:49 pm

TopCat wrote:Well this is the thing. They've got so much invested in their position that the drive to preserve it must be enormous. As my mum, with no scientific education at all, used to say to me when I was 18 and had my head up my own arse, "for someone as intelligent as you, you can be incredibly stupid". How right she was, but it made no difference at the time.

Does Behe have tenure at Lehigh? I mean, to have something like this on your Department web site is jawdropping.

Can they really not get rid of him?

How can the guy be so shameless as to show up every day?


I do wonder what he does all day. Do they let him teach classes? I hope not. And what grad student would want him as a supervisor? His publication record is pretty spotty.

It looks suspiciously like he is using his university salary to just sit on his ass and proselytize.
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#83  Postby hackenslash » Jan 26, 2015 4:06 pm

TopCat wrote:but it's wrong to dismiss Behe's argument exclusively on there being a non-zero probability.


Not really. It would be wrong to dismiss his conclusion, because that commits a fallacy all its own, but it's entirely proper to dismiss an argument when it's rooted in fallacy.

If the probability of an event happening in a given time period is quantifiable, and the outcome relies on a lot of those events happening, then it's not intrinsically wrong to talk about waiting times.


It really is. All such events could come thick and fast, not least because they're statistically independent of each other. This is simply the gambler's fallacy writ large.
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#84  Postby TopCat » Jan 26, 2015 4:23 pm

hackenslash wrote:It would be wrong to dismiss his conclusion, because that commits a fallacy all its own

Sorry, I don't get that, could you explain please?

The only reason for not dismissing the conclusion I can see would be that it could be right, based on some other, unstated, non-fallacious argument. Is that anywhere close?
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#85  Postby Onyx8 » Jan 26, 2015 4:27 pm

Ah, thanks Rum, I think I have it now.
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#86  Postby surreptitious57 » Jan 26, 2015 5:01 pm

TopCat wrote:
to have something like this on your Department web site is jawdropping

That is very embarrassing indeed. I can understand non scientists not accepting Evolution but any scientist that
thinks it is false just staggers belief. Since it most definitely has got nothing at all to do with a lack of evidence

There is this meme that is dominant in America but we have it over here as well and it is that the controversy must be taught And that the alternatives to Evolution must be given equal preference in the classroom. And we have Peter Hitchens going on about why Michael Behe is not allowed to have his views treated with any respect by the scientific community. And instead is dismissed simply for thinking differently. For someone as intelligent as him to suggest that is complete nonsense. We can not have people like Behe discrediting something which is scientific fact for ulterior motive

Christian academies in this country are actually teaching Creationism and there is nothing in law to stop them from doing so And we also have Creationist zoos over here for the love of God. All this needs to stop and stop now. And instead every child irrespective of what ever type of school that they attend should be taught about Evolution. And that any alternatives should be referenced as religious belief and not scientific fact
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#87  Postby GenesForLife » Jan 26, 2015 5:32 pm

TopCat wrote:
hackenslash wrote:It would be wrong to dismiss his conclusion, because that commits a fallacy all its own

Sorry, I don't get that, could you explain please?


A conclusion that is reached by using fallacious arguments needn't be false.
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#88  Postby hackenslash » Jan 26, 2015 6:38 pm

TopCat wrote:
hackenslash wrote:It would be wrong to dismiss his conclusion, because that commits a fallacy all its own

Sorry, I don't get that, could you explain please?

The only reason for not dismissing the conclusion I can see would be that it could be right, based on some other, unstated, non-fallacious argument. Is that anywhere close?


Pretty much. To dismiss a conclusion based on the fact that a fallacy has been committed in arriving at it is to commit the fallacist's fallacy.

E.g:

P1. All yellow things are made of mostly hydrogen and helium.
P2. The sun is yellow.
C. The sun is made of mostly hydrogen and helium.

The conclusion is correct, but the reasoning employed to arrive at it incorrect, thus to dismiss the conclusion, which is true, based on the fact that the reasoning is incorrect, is to commit the fallacist's fallacy.
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#89  Postby Calilasseia » Jan 26, 2015 7:19 pm

hackenslash wrote:
TopCat wrote:
hackenslash wrote:It would be wrong to dismiss his conclusion, because that commits a fallacy all its own

Sorry, I don't get that, could you explain please?

The only reason for not dismissing the conclusion I can see would be that it could be right, based on some other, unstated, non-fallacious argument. Is that anywhere close?


Pretty much. To dismiss a conclusion based on the fact that a fallacy has been committed in arriving at it is to commit the fallacist's fallacy.

E.g:

P1. All yellow things are made of mostly hydrogen and helium.
P2. The sun is yellow.
C. The sun is made of mostly hydrogen and helium.

The conclusion is correct, but the reasoning employed to arrive at it incorrect, thus to dismiss the conclusion, which is true, based on the fact that the reasoning is incorrect, is to commit the fallacist's fallacy.


Which of course dovetails nicely with the fact that the material conditional sensu Quine, is true when the antecedent is false, but the consequent is true. Reflecting the fact that one can alight upon a true conclusion by faulty means, but one cannot consistently alight upon a falsehood by error-free derivation from a true antecedent.

And after that tangential diversion into the world of propositional logic, I return you all to your scheduled thread. :)
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#90  Postby JohnGalt » Feb 02, 2015 2:05 pm

Shrunk wrote:I do wonder what he [Behe] does all day. Do they let him teach classes? I hope not.

I can see two reasons why having him teach classes would be a good thing.

1) He is a biochemist. He appears to be in agreement with conventional positions on biochemical pathways and processes. (His gripe is about how they arose.) Why would his teaching in that sphere be problematic.

2) The students are not schoolchildren, but undergraduates who should be imbued with skepticism about what they are taught by all their instructors. If Behe chose to teach about irreducible complexity this is surely a useful challenge to the reasoning power of the students.
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#91  Postby Shrunk » Jun 16, 2015 6:59 pm

This is quite amusing. As Larry Moran points out on his blog, the IDiots are all in a tizzy over an actual peer-reviewed scientific publication that seems to use the term "irreducible complexity" in the same sense that Behe uses it. This is supposed to be some sort of vindication. They neglect to mention, or are unaware, that the same paper also provides highly plausible scenarios by which this entity (the cellular genetic regulation system) can have arisen thru evolution.

So if, in fact, the authors are speaking of the same "irreducible complexity" to which Behe refers, then this paper is yet one more nail in its coffin (which, by this point, is less coffin than nails).

Here's the blog post:

http://sandwalk.blogspot.ca/2015/06/the ... exity.html
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#92  Postby Calilasseia » Jun 16, 2015 7:15 pm

Though of course, real biologists usually have in mind "irreducible complexity" sensu Müller, who provided an explanation of how such systems could be produced by evolution six decades before Behe was even born.
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#93  Postby sdelsolray » Jun 17, 2015 2:35 am

Behe has become a whore for creationism. Likely, the peer pressure that surrounds him as a member of the Discovery Institute Mafia, and which is the source of his paycheck, are influencing factors.
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#94  Postby Shrunk » Jun 17, 2015 10:15 am

sdelsolray wrote:Behe has become a whore for creationism.


When was he ever anything else?

Likely, the peer pressure that surrounds him as a member of the Discovery Institute Mafia, and which is the source of his paycheck, are influencing factors.


I don't think that can be offered as an excuse. He gets a steady paycheque from his tenured position as a professor. And as an early member of the DI, he'd be one of the people exerting peer pressure.
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