Behe declares victory on all fronts

Apparent evidence for ID

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Behe declares victory on all fronts

#1  Postby BooBoo » Dec 19, 2014 1:23 pm

In a talk in South Korea, Michael Behe has admitted doing a "victory dance" in his office based on new evidence that he claims supports his ID contentions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlvYn0WrHaY

1. Chloroquine resistance does indeed require exceptionally rare, simultaneous, mutations (the edge of evolution): http://www.pnas.org/content/111/17/E1759.abstract

2. Mechanical gears are found in grasshoppers: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6151/1254

3. Fiber optics are found in the eye: http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/14070 ... s5319.html

Behe quotes a report on the last paper which claims that "photoreceptors at the back of the retina is not a design constraint, it is a design feature.": http://phys.org/news/2014-07-fiber-opti ... imple.html
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#2  Postby NineBerry » Dec 19, 2014 1:26 pm

"Der Angriff Steins war ein BEFEHL!"
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#3  Postby Zadocfish2 » Dec 19, 2014 1:27 pm

... So, same self-satisfied ignorance of natural processes as always?
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#4  Postby chairman bill » Dec 19, 2014 1:56 pm

But if God made Behe, doesn't that disprove intelligent design?
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#5  Postby Evolving » Dec 19, 2014 2:12 pm

NineBerry wrote:"Der Angriff Steins war ein BEFEHL!"


Don't remember him doing a victory dance in that film, though.

It would have lightened things up, certainly.
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#6  Postby Shrunk » Dec 19, 2014 2:18 pm

BooBoo wrote:In a talk in South Korea, Michael Behe has admitted doing a "victory dance" in his office based on new evidence that he claims supports his ID contentions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlvYn0WrHaY

1. Chloroquine resistance does indeed require exceptionally rare, simultaneous, mutations (the edge of evolution): http://www.pnas.org/content/111/17/E1759.abstract


His position is ridiculous, since the paper actually refutes the claim he has been making. It's right there in the title (my empahsis): "Diverse mutational pathways converge on saturable chloroquine transport via the malaria parasite’s chloroquine resistance transporter."

i.e. there are lots and lots of ways that mutations can lead to chloroquine resistance. Not just a single path that needs to be performed by Jesus.

The failure of Behe's argument is more fully discussed here:

http://sandwalk.blogspot.ca/2014/08/mic ... ge-of.html

This raises questions of Michael Behe's competence and ethics. It is obvious that most of his sycophants will take what ever he says as gospel truth without even bothering to understand the argument he is actually trying to make. If he says a paper that refutes his argument actually confirms it, they'll take his word for it and join him in his victory dance.

The question, then, is whether Behe is just as ignorant and incompetent as his acolytes in understanding the relevant scientific literature? Or does he understand the literature himself, but is counting of the fact that his folllowers do not understand it in order to maintain his position as a leader of the creationist movement?

Neither conclusion is particularly flattering to him.
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#7  Postby Animavore » Dec 19, 2014 2:19 pm

A 'victory dance'. Did he also run into a biology lab twirling his jacket over his head while shouting, "In your face!"?
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#8  Postby BooBoo » Dec 19, 2014 2:38 pm

Shrunk wrote:
His position is ridiculous, since the paper actually refutes the claim he has been making. It's right there in the title (my empahsis): "Diverse mutational pathways converge on saturable chloroquine transport via the malaria parasite’s chloroquine resistance transporter."i.e. there are lots and lots of ways that mutations can lead to chloroquine resistance. Not just a single path that needs to be performed by Jesus.


No, the paper confirms what Behe has been saying all along about the evolution of the resistance. It requires at least TWO mutations to confer at least some transport activity:

A minimum of two mutations sufficed for (low) CQ transport activity, and as few as four conferred full activity.


The findings presented here reveal that the minimum requirement for (low) CQ transport activity in both the ET and TD lineages of CQR PfCRT is two mutations.


This rare occurrence is what Behe calls the "edge" of evolution.
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#9  Postby Blackadder » Dec 19, 2014 2:46 pm

Animavore wrote:A 'victory dance'. Did he also run into a biology lab twirling his jacket over his head while shouting, "In your face!"?


If he did, it would constitute the most serious work he's ever done in a biology lab, the lying sack of shit.
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#10  Postby Shrunk » Dec 19, 2014 2:51 pm

BooBoo wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
His position is ridiculous, since the paper actually refutes the claim he has been making. It's right there in the title (my empahsis): "Diverse mutational pathways converge on saturable chloroquine transport via the malaria parasite’s chloroquine resistance transporter."i.e. there are lots and lots of ways that mutations can lead to chloroquine resistance. Not just a single path that needs to be performed by Jesus.


No, the paper confirms what Behe has been saying all along about the evolution of the resistance. It requires at least TWO mutations to confer at least some transport activity:

A minimum of two mutations sufficed for (low) CQ transport activity, and as few as four conferred full activity.


The findings presented here reveal that the minimum requirement for (low) CQ transport activity in both the ET and TD lineages of CQR PfCRT is two mutations.


This rare occurrence is what Behe calls the "edge" of evolution.


That was already known long before Behe made the claim, as shown by the references in Larry Moran's blog post. And Behe's argument is based on the odds of those two mutations occurring simultaneously in the same individual. He's strawmanning his opponents if he's claiming that they had argued that chloroquine resistance only required one mutation, which is absurd.

You're providing a perfect example of the phenomenon I was describing, where Behe's fans will uncritically accept his erroneous and self-serving interpretation of the scientific evidence, without bothering to understand it for themselves.
Last edited by Shrunk on Dec 19, 2014 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#11  Postby Shrunk » Dec 19, 2014 2:52 pm

Blackadder wrote:
Animavore wrote:A 'victory dance'. Did he also run into a biology lab twirling his jacket over his head while shouting, "In your face!"?


If he did, it would constitute the most serious work he's ever done in a biology lab, the lying sack of shit.


Now, now. Let's not make presumptions. There remains room for reasonable doubt as to whether he is not a lying sack fo shit, but merely a useless and incompetent sack of shit. Though I'm partial to the "all of the above" hypothesis.
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#12  Postby BooBoo » Dec 19, 2014 3:59 pm

Shrunk wrote:
That was already known long before Behe made the claim, as shown by the references in Larry Moran's blog post. And Behe's argument is based on the odds of those two mutations occurring simultaneously in the same individual. He's strawmanning his opponents if he's claiming that they had argued that chloroquine resistance only required one mutation, which is absurd.


Behe's critics have long argued that chloroquine resistance could have evolved one mutation at a time, cumulatively. Unfortunately for them it turns out that it requires two mutations to both be present for even rudimentary transport activity to be possible. Natural selection works among individuals, so Behe is right to suppose that a simultaneous mutation is likely necessary, allowing for the less likely scenario of horizontal gene transfer.
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#13  Postby Shrunk » Dec 19, 2014 4:46 pm

Here's an example of what passes for "thinking" among creationists. This is from an article by one of Behe's cheerleaders, the execrable Casey Luskin, where he demands an apololgy from Behe's critics in light of the Summers article:

Behe inferred, based upon the great rarity of a CCC evolving, that it was a trait that probably required multiple mutations. Behe's argument didn't turn on that inference, but it was a reasonable one. Richard Dawkins himself used exactly the same sort of reasoning in other contexts to infer that a trait required multiple mutations to evolve.

Will Ken Miller, Jerry Coyne, Paul Gross, Nick Matzke, Sean Carroll, Richard Dawkins, and PZ Myers Now Apologize to Michael Behe?

Behe's critics misread him as saying that a single CCC necessarily required multiple simultaneous mutations, and castigated Behe for allegedly ignoring the possibility of a single CCC arising via sequential mutations.


So let me get this straight: Luskin accuses the critics of of mistakenly accusing Behe of claiming that chloroquine resistance required multiple simultaneous mutations, and saying that it could have arisen thru sequential mutations.

A paper is published detailing how chloroquine resistance likely arose thru sequential mutations.

IOW, the paper confirms the scenario that the critics accused Behe of dismissing.

So, I’m sorry, but exactly how is this a vindication for Behe? His critics said all along that chloroquine resistance likely arose thru sequential mutations. Luskin even helpfully provides the quotations to confirm this.

And, lo and behold, here comes a paper further confirming that, yes, chloroguine resistance arose thru sequential mutations.

So how does this lead to Behe crowing “Ha ha! You were wrong, and I was right”? Can you help me out here, BooBoo.

There’s more:

Now, granted, it is arguable that some of the critics they were wrong about Behe's claiming that simultaneous mutations were required for chloroquine resistance. Behe is an atrocious writer (almost as bad as Dembski), and it’s often hard to know exactly what he’s trying to say But look just earlier in Luskin's article, where he quotes Behe’s argument that CCC’s represent an “edge” to evolution:

Recall that the odds against getting two necessary, independent mutations are the multiplied odds for getting each mutation individually. What if a problem arose that required a cluster of mutations that was twice as complicated as a CCC? (Let's call it a double CCC.) For example, what if instead of the several amino acid changes needed for chloroquine resistance in malaria, twice that number were needed? In that case the odds would be that for a CCC times itself. Instead of 1020 cells to solve the evolutionary problem, we would need 1040 cells.


It may not be immediately apparent, but Behe is making exactly the error that Luskin is denying he made: He is assuming that the mutations that lead to a trait that is double the CCC must arise in a single individual.

This error is elaborated upon here:

http://sfmatheson.blogspot.ca/2008/08/b ... tyhow.html
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#14  Postby Shrunk » Dec 19, 2014 4:47 pm

BooBoo wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
That was already known long before Behe made the claim, as shown by the references in Larry Moran's blog post. And Behe's argument is based on the odds of those two mutations occurring simultaneously in the same individual. He's strawmanning his opponents if he's claiming that they had argued that chloroquine resistance only required one mutation, which is absurd.


Behe's critics have long argued that chloroquine resistance could have evolved one mutation at a time, cumulatively.


And Summers' paper confirms that. So they were right.
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#15  Postby Shrunk » Dec 19, 2014 4:49 pm

so Behe is right to suppose that a simultaneous mutation is likely necessary,


Heh. That's funny. The Casey Luskin article I quote above says that is exactly what Behe is not saying. Luskin is demanding an apology from the people who said that's what Behe was claiming. So are you going to apologize to Behe, like Luskin is demanding?
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#16  Postby Calilasseia » Dec 19, 2014 11:09 pm

How is Behe still holding on to tenure, given that his position has been utterly destroyed by the real world evidence?

And how much more devastating evidence will it take to be dropped on him like an atomic bomb, before his fanboys wake up and smell the roses?
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#17  Postby Darwinsbulldog » Dec 20, 2014 12:30 am

Calilasseia wrote:How is Behe still holding on to tenure, given that his position has been utterly destroyed by the real world evidence?

And how much more devastating evidence will it take to be dropped on him like an atomic bomb, before his fanboys wake up and smell the roses?


Lehigh University should sack him and appoint the Chair to the Blue Butterfly. 100,000 times more biologist for their buck! :thumbup: But of course we should not expect justice in the world.
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#18  Postby Shrunk » Dec 20, 2014 1:21 am

Calilasseia wrote:How is Behe still holding on to tenure, given that his position has been utterly destroyed by the real world evidence?


That's what tenure means, and why it's so hard to get. Even so, sometimes someone undeserving slips thru.
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#19  Postby DougC » Dec 20, 2014 1:23 am

Wiki say
'In the United States and Canada, tenure is a teacher or college professor's contractual right not to have his or her position terminated without just cause. It is awarded after a probationary period.'


My bold. How about being a moron?
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Re: Behe declares victory on all fronts

#20  Postby BooBoo » Dec 20, 2014 1:49 am

Shrunk wrote:
And Summers' paper confirms that. So they were right.


No, the paper does not state that at all. It confirms that two mutations are necessary and, crucially, that "the mutations be added in a specific order to avoid decreases in chloroquine transport." The paper also admits that there would be "significant transient reductions in CQ transport activity before the full complement of Dd2 mutations is attained. The authors, however, speculate that a compensatory change could allow deleterious changes to be masked/buffered: "one or more compensatory changes (e.g., perhaps R371I and/or M74I) could arise at an early stage to maintain the normal physiological function of the protein while it develops the ability to transport CQ."
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