Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

#41  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 17, 2017 7:51 pm

Calilasseia wrote:
Of course, even if the relevant scientific researchers succeed in putting together an experiment, that starts with simple molecules at the beginning, and yields viable protocells at the other, creationists will still invent specious excuses to dismiss that work. It's a well-documented part of the aetiology.


And even if scientists were able to replicate abiogenesis it seems unfair to expect them to be able to achieve it in an experiment lasting 1 year; or 10 years.....or 100,000 years; given how long it likely took for the earliest protocells to develop since the planet's formation.
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Re: Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

#42  Postby DavidMcC » Dec 18, 2017 1:15 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Calilasseia wrote:
Of course, even if the relevant scientific researchers succeed in putting together an experiment, that starts with simple molecules at the beginning, and yields viable protocells at the other, creationists will still invent specious excuses to dismiss that work. It's a well-documented part of the aetiology.


And even if scientists were able to replicate abiogenesis it seems unfair to expect them to be able to achieve it in an experiment lasting 1 year; or 10 years.....or 100,000 years; given how long it likely took for the earliest protocells to develop since the planet's formation.

Except that it should be possible to greatly speed up the processes, eg, by using much higher concentrations of the chemicals concerned than would have occurred naturally, billions of years ago.
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Re: Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

#43  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 18, 2017 1:54 pm

Makes no difference if you're waiting for a stellar neutrino to strike a molecule in the appropriate way, mutating it in order to facilitate the process of abiogenesis.
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Re: Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

#44  Postby theropod » Dec 18, 2017 2:54 pm

Keep It Real wrote:Makes no difference if you're waiting for a stellar neutrino to strike a molecule in the appropriate way, mutating it in order to facilitate the process of abiogenesis.


Nutrinos have such a small chance of interacting with standard byronic matter that they are poor candidates for such. Gamma rays, x-rays and other high energy ionizing radiation sources are much more likely to do so, and considering the early atmosphere of earth was probably much less dense than what we experience today these sources could penetrate much deeper than now. Maybe bombarding the surface regularly.

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Re: Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

#45  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 18, 2017 3:56 pm

Even better.
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Re: Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

#46  Postby theropod » Dec 18, 2017 6:48 pm

Keep It Real wrote:Even better.


Yes, and there is a distinct possibility that bolides containing ionizing material were frequently deposited both on the surface and dispersed into what little atmosphere there was. Should such material settle on/in the immediate vicinity of primeval biotic chemicals mutations would surely have resulted. Combine this with geothermal heat, and frequent lightening discharges, and the sources for mutagenic input become commonplace.

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Re: Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

#47  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 18, 2017 7:08 pm

theropod wrote: geothermal heat


That's the primary candidate imo; as I think it likely abiogenesis occurs most often in the proximity of deep sea hydrothermal vents. My uncle sent me a paper detailing hydrothermal vent ecosystems when I was circa 12 years old; with the implication that they are the likely/plausible (he might have been just making sure I wasn't a creationist I think actually lol) sites for abiogenesis - and I'm yet to be convinced otherwise in the circa 24 years since.
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Re: Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

#48  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 18, 2017 7:51 pm

This image takes "kinky" to a whole new level.

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Re: Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

#49  Postby Calilasseia » Dec 18, 2017 9:22 pm

An interesting new perspective on hydrothermal vents can be read here.
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Re: Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

#50  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 18, 2017 9:35 pm

Nice 1 Cali. I've read it once but need to read it again (tomorrow) googling all the esoteric terms I'm unfamiliar with in order to properly understand it I think. My initial reaction to "It's too bloody hot in the vents" is that the new molecules only have to survive there a short time before they're thrown out of the vent and into the cool.
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Re: Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

#51  Postby theropod » Dec 18, 2017 9:49 pm

I think the researchers may be ignoring/overlooking how water currents would kick out some materials from the most hot areas due to convection. Also there would be gradients of heat areas surrounding these vents, and if clay material was being erupted along with metal rich water there exists another set of factors which need addressing.

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Re: Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

#52  Postby Calilasseia » Dec 18, 2017 9:52 pm

The problem with that being, that according to the research cited, the ambient pressure merely accelerates the decomposition of cytidine at the requisite temperatures. Indeed, the effects of pressure and temperature on organic molecules, is a problem not only faced by abiogenesis researchers, but medicinal chemists too. Finding ways of stopping this impacting a synthesis sometimes requires ingenuity in the med chem world.

Of course, as cited in that article, metal ion stabilisation could overcome this, but that's something else requiring empirical investigation, to see if it happens. If metal ion stabilisation doesn't happen, or is too weak in its effects to overcome the newly found additional destabilising effects of increased pressure at the temperatures in question, then that won't rescue the hypothesis.

Indeed, that's cited as the next project for the researchers - determine if metal ions in solution stabilise matters. Along with determining if coupling cytidine in a larger molecule stabilises matters. If the molecules you need, however, fall apart quickly under the requisite conditions, then your mechanism starts to hit the buffers.

My own view is that the various hypotheses floating around for abiogenesis shouldn't be seen as competitors, but as contributors to the whole picture, with products from one mechanism helping another mechanism along. I suspect a mature theory will eventually gravitate toward that view.

EDIT: the paper itself drops another unfortunate problem into the mix, viz:

In this context, it must also be noted that although phosphodiester bonds have extreme chemical stability, with a half life for hydrolysis at 25°C and pH 7 of ~130,000 to 30,000,000 years,[13] in the presence of strong Lewis-acid species, featuring usually dizinc(II), dinickel(II) complexes or lanthanide species, hydrolysis rates are orders of magnitude higher than those for the deamination of cytosine.[14] Modern cytidine deaminases, including the APOBEC3 family of single-stranded DNA mutator proteins all feature a Zn(his)(cys)2 active site.[15].


Basically, that poses problems for the attachment of phosphate ions to one's nucleosides. The sugar-phosphate bond is remarkably resilient to hydrolysis - namely, being broken apart by the action of water. But that resilience decreases dramatically, the moment you have certain metal ions dissolved in the water in question. Ions such as Zn2+, Ni2+, La3+, Ce3+, etc., all speed up hydrolysis of the sugar-phosphate bond enormously, depending upon concentration. As the paper states, an enzyme class specifically evolved for deamination of cytosine in specific circumstances, involves a Zn2+ ion bolted onto the protein scaffold, and metal ions attached to proteins do a lot of chemical "heavy lifting" in the biosphere. But, that bolting of metal ions onto proteins, arises because the end result controls the effect of the metal ion, and directs the metal ion's chemical reaction effects to a specific target. Free-moving metal ions in aqueous solution aren't subject to the same restrictions.

The entire pressure-temperature-pH space has long been known to exert effects upon reactions by chemists. Some reactions only vary modestly in reaction rate across wide variations of space parameters, whilst other reactions undergo dramatic changes of reaction rate.
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Re: Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

#53  Postby theropod » Dec 18, 2017 10:01 pm

Would not early oceans possibly had had much more common shallow water vents than are the norm today? There are such vents extant today.

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Re: Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

#54  Postby Keep It Real » Dec 18, 2017 10:13 pm

Shallow water vents would also be conducive to photosynthetic metabolism - although full blown chromoplasts are surely a long way down the line from abiogenesis.
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Re: Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

#55  Postby Calilasseia » Dec 18, 2017 10:21 pm

theropod wrote:Would not early oceans possibly had had much more common shallow water vents than are the norm today? There are such vents extant today.

Link

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That brings us into collision with the Gas Laws.

One of the reasons deep hydrothermal vents have been a popular choice for abiogenetic scenarios, is because the ambient pressure ensures that water stays liquid at elevated temperatures. Water boils at 100°C under 1 atmosphere of pressure, but when the pressure is many tens of atmospheres, water can remain liquid to 200°C and beyond. This won't be the case for a shallow vent. Since all the chemistry in question has to take place in the liquid phase, then by definition, you can't have your vent produce sufficient temperatures to boil your water away.

One good aspect of a shallow vent, however, is that water further out is likely to remain at temperatures conducive to other reactions, that would increase the likelihood of vent chemistry being implicated in the origin of life. It's swings and roundabouts at a fairly rococo level. :)

Which is why I'm a fan of the various hypotheses being contributors to the whole picture, rather than competing in toto explanations. Hydrothermal vents would provide some nice reagents for other mechanisms, which in turn would, upon being propelled thereby, provide some reagents for additional vent chemistry, and so on.
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Re: Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

#56  Postby Wortfish » Dec 19, 2017 2:00 am

pelfdaddy wrote:Wortfish, let me see if I have this straight...

Even though observing Nature can only get us started in the process of collecting data, since there are too many variables involved to construct a working hypothesis; and even though laboratory experimentation has proven to be a most effective means of isolating the critical variables so that we can actually learn something; and even though the very thing you claim can NOT happen is SHOWN to happen in the laboratory...

...you are still complaining that the thing you insisted could never be observed HAS been observed, because you are pissed off that "Those guys set things up so that they COULD observe it".

Do I have that right? I mean, even though I forewent my higher education to study the Bible and become a minister, even I can see that what you did right there...

...was straight up dishonest. I won't call you a liar; just a bullshit-ass motherfucker. You should save the elementary apologetics for church, where the trick won't be noticed.


Well, the problem is that whenever you set out to demonstrate how something can happen, it defeats the objective which is merely to observe it happening and not partake in the process being observed. We can observe earthquakes, but that doesn't mean we need to try and recreate the conditions that cause them in a lab. The Sutherland experiments intetionally set out to find a process whereby prebiotic chemicals could form in a lab but are stil analagous to the conditions of the early earth. They involve a series of choreographed steps, many of them isolated from each other, whereas in the wild there would be more interactions and accidents that would disturb the outcome.
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Re: Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

#57  Postby Wortfish » Dec 19, 2017 2:11 am

Rumraket wrote:
Wortfish wrote:You see, in the wild, complex molecules are always being broken down into simpler constituents.

You know this is provably false, don't you?

If what you say was really true, only the elemental forms of the entire periodic table would exist in nature. But that isn't the case. Carbonaceous chondrites contain extraordinaly complex organic molecules. Most of them are insolube and probably unrelated to the origin of life. But they're certainly not simple. Here's an example:
1-s2.0-S1631071307002830-gr4.jpg


This is a lot more complex than any particular amino acid or monomer of RNA or DNA.


Well, meteors do carry complex molecules, but that's precisely because those molecules are not in a position to be broken down, being isolated travelling through space. Take the sugar, ribose, C5H10O5, which is a complex organic molecule found in RNA. Like with the nucleic bases itself, ribose will react and break down in the presence of sunlight, acids and water. What you will be left with are simpler molecules. We know that ribose is unstable and decomposes quickly. This fact has caused a lot of problems with the RNA world hypothesis: http://www.pnas.org/content/92/18/8158.full.pdf
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Re: Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

#58  Postby Wortfish » Dec 19, 2017 2:13 am

Shrunk wrote:
Wortfish wrote:You see, in the wild, complex molecules are always being broken down into simpler constituents.


Wow. I mean, I know you always write stupid shit here. But, just, wow. You've really floored me this time.


I'm glad you see the problem. Chemical evolution expects the opposite of what is natural to happen.
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Re: Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

#59  Postby Greyman » Dec 19, 2017 7:13 am

Wortfish wrote:Well, meteors do carry complex molecules, but that's precisely because those molecules are not in a position to be broken down, being isolated travelling through space. Take the sugar, ribose, C5H10O5, which is a complex organic molecule found in RNA. Like with the nucleic bases itself, ribose will react and break down in the presence of sunlight, acids and water. What you will be left with are simpler molecules. We know that ribose is unstable and decomposes quickly. This fact has caused a lot of problems with the RNA world hypothesis: http://www.pnas.org/content/92/18/8158.full.pdf
This fact isn't a great surprise to anyone, and yet hasn't been viewed as an insurmountable problem with the hypothesis over the last twenty years. Indeed as that 1995 paper concluded:
CONCLUSION The above results show that stability considerations preclude the use of ribose and other sugars as prebiotic reagents except under very special conditions. It follows that ribose and other sugars were not components of the first genetic material and that other possibilities, such as the peptide nucleic acids (36) and other non-sugar-based backbones, should be examined.
As always, the answer to "oh, here is a problem," is not "give up and bask in ignorance", it is "let us keep studying and learn more".

Such as, for just one example, considering the possibility that there may have been prebiotic conditions where ribose polymers might be stabilised.
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Re: Creationists reveal how so many species evolved in 4K years.

#60  Postby Rumraket » Dec 19, 2017 12:20 pm

Wortfish wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
Wortfish wrote:You see, in the wild, complex molecules are always being broken down into simpler constituents.

You know this is provably false, don't you?

If what you say was really true, only the elemental forms of the entire periodic table would exist in nature. But that isn't the case. Carbonaceous chondrites contain extraordinaly complex organic molecules. Most of them are insolube and probably unrelated to the origin of life. But they're certainly not simple. Here's an example:
1-s2.0-S1631071307002830-gr4.jpg


This is a lot more complex than any particular amino acid or monomer of RNA or DNA.


Well, meteors do carry complex molecules, but that's precisely because those molecules are not in a position to be broken down, being isolated travelling through space.

How did it get so complex in the first place?

If they're always broken down and never get more complex in nature, then why is there so complex molecules in meteorites?
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