Does the Earth spin/rotate about it's axis?

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: Does the Earth spin/rotate about it's axis?

#2401  Postby Pulsar » Mar 17, 2012 12:00 am

GapWim wrote:eventually something has to stick ... right??

I wouldn't count on it :lol:
Science is a dialogue between the free play of ideas — theorizing — and the harsh constraints of empiricism — experimental data. Theories are a lever, data are a fulcrum, and between them we can move the world. - Sean Carroll
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Re: Does the Earth spin/rotate about it's axis?

#2402  Postby GapWim » Mar 17, 2012 12:14 am

questioner121 wrote:I'm still not convinced. Something doesn't seem quite right (...might just be my head).


Like what? "Something" is rather vague, can you pinpoint it some more?

The way you wrote that I get the distinct feeling you're experiencing cognitive dissonance ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance ) at this time.
If you have a large investment (time, emotional, social, ...) in your scriptures then this is to be expected, it is up to you however to make up your mind what is most important to you
- the comfortable feeling of certainty scripture gives you
or
- Caring whether something is true or not, holding views that are in line with reality and conform to what the evidence presents
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Re: Does the Earth spin/rotate about it's axis?

#2403  Postby questioner121 » Mar 17, 2012 1:00 am

GapWim wrote:
questioner121 wrote:I'm still not convinced. Something doesn't seem quite right (...might just be my head).


Like what? "Something" is rather vague, can you pinpoint it some more?

The way you wrote that I get the distinct feeling you're experiencing cognitive dissonance ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance ) at this time.
If you have a large investment (time, emotional, social, ...) in your scriptures then this is to be expected, it is up to you however to make up your mind what is most important to you
- the comfortable feeling of certainty scripture gives you
or
- Caring whether something is true or not, holding views that are in line with reality and conform to what the evidence presents


There are a few things which I'm working on. I need get my head around them before I post.
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Re: Does the Earth spin/rotate about it's axis?

#2404  Postby z8000783 » Mar 17, 2012 8:51 am

Yes, you have said this many times over the last hundred or so pages but you never specify what the issue is. This could be seen as someone simply attempting to muddy the waters without much mud available.

If you feel the issue is a theological one then perhaps you should say so.

John
I don’t simply believe in miracles - I rely on them
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Re: Does the Earth spin/rotate about it's axis?

#2405  Postby GapWim » Mar 17, 2012 9:23 am

questioner121 wrote:There are a few things which I'm working on. I need get my head around them before I post.


While you're doing that (hopefully scouring science textbooks to get an idea how it all fits together) ... you may want to do some introspective at the same time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_per ... ed_beliefs

To re-use a quote from another youtuber named Huttate1 (I couldn't find the origin of the quote so for now I'll attribute it to him):
"If I get any facts wrong then I am at fault - but if all the facts are correct and you still cannot accept them then you are at fault"
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Re: Does the Earth spin/rotate about it's axis?

#2406  Postby mraltair » Mar 17, 2012 10:34 am

z8000783 wrote:Yes, you have said this many times over the last hundred or so pages but you never specify what the issue is. This could be seen as someone simply attempting to muddy the waters without much mud available.

John


Don't worry, he makes his own 'mud'.
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Re: Does the Earth spin/rotate about it's axis?

#2407  Postby questioner121 » Mar 18, 2012 10:49 pm

z8000783 wrote:Yes, you have said this many times over the last hundred or so pages but you never specify what the issue is. This could be seen as someone simply attempting to muddy the waters without much mud available.

If you feel the issue is a theological one then perhaps you should say so.

John


The issue is not theological but it did originate from there.

One thing that doesn't seem quite right is the gravity of the earth. If the gravity of the earth is zero at the centre of the earth and it gets weaker as you go below the surface of the earth, how did it come together and stay together given that it was rotating from the beginning and actually rotating faster?
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Re: Does the Earth spin/rotate about it's axis?

#2408  Postby z8000783 » Mar 18, 2012 10:55 pm

Is that all that's bothering you? So when you have an explanation for that, all will be well and you will be satisfied that the Earth is rotating? Or is there something else underneath all of this?

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Re: Does the Earth spin/rotate about it's axis?

#2409  Postby questioner121 » Mar 18, 2012 11:00 pm

z8000783 wrote:Is that all that's bothering you? So when you have an explanation for that, all will be well and you will be satisfied that the Earth is rotating? Or is there something else underneath all of this?

John


There's some more. This is just one of the things. The clouds rotating with the earth is another.
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Re: Does the Earth spin/rotate about it's axis?

#2410  Postby z8000783 » Mar 18, 2012 11:01 pm

...and these things are holding up your acceptance of a rotating Earth?

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Re: Does the Earth spin/rotate about it's axis?

#2411  Postby tolman » Mar 19, 2012 12:25 am

questioner121 wrote:There's some more. This is just one of the things. The clouds rotating with the earth is another.

How (and why) do you think the atmosphere should behave on a constantly rotating Earth then?
I don't do sarcasm smileys, but someone as bright as you has probably figured that out already.
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Re: Does the Earth spin/rotate about it's axis?

#2412  Postby rainbow » Mar 19, 2012 1:46 pm

The Creator deems it so.
Kill the Wise One!
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155419

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Re: Does the Earth spin/rotate about it's axis?

#2413  Postby Acetone » Mar 19, 2012 3:34 pm

questioner121 wrote:
z8000783 wrote:Yes, you have said this many times over the last hundred or so pages but you never specify what the issue is. This could be seen as someone simply attempting to muddy the waters without much mud available.

If you feel the issue is a theological one then perhaps you should say so.

John


The issue is not theological but it did originate from there.

One thing that doesn't seem quite right is the gravity of the earth. If the gravity of the earth is zero at the centre of the earth and it gets weaker as you go below the surface of the earth, how did it come together and stay together given that it was rotating from the beginning and actually rotating faster?

Overall gravity at the centre of the Earth (the gravitational centre by the way) necessarily must be 0 because you'll have equal gravitational forces acting.

A simple way to see this is to have a piece of rope, have one person pull one end and another person pull another end; all with the same amount of force. No movement will occur. Add another rope and repeat, add infinite ropes and repeat and you'll have yourself a circle with a definite centre with abolutely no movement occuring.

Also, when you go under the Earths crust and start going to the centre of the Earth the amount of gravity experienced must necessarily be less than what it was at the crust given that, while the radius is decreasing the mass is decreasing also. You can see this even in simple Newtonian gravitational calculations. There is a slight problem of the Earths density not being consistent throughout however, so if we account for densities it may very well be that halfway to the crust there is still an overall gravitational pull is similar to the Crust (Say 75% of what it was probably higher) but once you reach the denser material it will drop off significantly. You also then have to account for the gravitational effects of the mass of Earth that is above you at to the sides of you which is beyond the scope of my physics courses I think. (Some physics and astronomy courses)

Now think about this relative to the formation of the Earth. It wouldn't have mattered if the overall gravitational force in the area that would once become the Earth was 0.00001% that of Earths current gravitational force so long as the gravitational centre points to that area matter will accrete (SP?) in that spot.

So if we think about the formation of a planet and we assume that in the general location of that planets formation area there is a consistent field of matter, so that's to say there is similar sized particles and similar spacing between the particles which are travelling at similar angular velocities. There is necessarily going to be (unless the field goes on forever...) a point in the field that all other gravitational vector sums point to. Doesn't matter how strong of a force that point itself has (if you don't include vector sums and just look at that individual point). If I'm wrong on any of this someone correct me. :P
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Re: Does the Earth spin/rotate about it's axis?

#2414  Postby Jehannum » Mar 19, 2012 3:34 pm

This point has probably been made already but I've got 5 minutes so:

If the whole universe is rotating how fast are those distant galaxies moving? Let's see ... a galaxy 13 billion light years away would describe a circle 6 x 10^13 km in one day. I think that works out to 6.944 x 10^8 km per second. Bearing in mind they're on a circular path so this involves acceleration, large g forces. The universe as a giant fucking centrifuge. Them aliens must sure be dizzy.
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Re: Does the Earth spin/rotate about it's axis?

#2415  Postby Acetone » Mar 19, 2012 3:39 pm

Jehannum wrote:This point has probably been made already but I've got 5 minutes so:

If the whole universe is rotating how fast are those distant galaxies moving? Let's see ... a galaxy 13 billion light years away would describe a circle 6 x 10^13 km in one day. I think that works out to 6.944 x 10^8 km per second. Bearing in mind they're on a circular path so this involves acceleration, large g forces. The universe as a giant fucking centrifuge. Them aliens must sure be dizzy.

:lol: :lol:
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Re: Does the Earth spin/rotate about it's axis?

#2416  Postby Rumraket » Mar 19, 2012 4:49 pm

Jehannum wrote:This point has probably been made already but I've got 5 minutes so:

If the whole universe is rotating how fast are those distant galaxies moving? Let's see ... a galaxy 13 billion light years away would describe a circle 6 x 10^13 km in one day. I think that works out to 6.944 x 10^8 km per second. Bearing in mind they're on a circular path so this involves acceleration, large g forces. The universe as a giant fucking centrifuge. Them aliens must sure be dizzy.

Can someone please calculate the needed gravitational pull(and therefore mass) of the earth to keep the entire rest of the universe locked in orbit at the requisite velocities and distances? I'm guessing we're talking Uber-hyper-supermassive blackhole on a fruitcake scale. Like 1050 solar masses? More?
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Re: Does the Earth spin/rotate about it's axis?

#2417  Postby GrahamH » Mar 19, 2012 5:41 pm

Rumraket wrote:
Jehannum wrote:This point has probably been made already but I've got 5 minutes so:

If the whole universe is rotating how fast are those distant galaxies moving? Let's see ... a galaxy 13 billion light years away would describe a circle 6 x 10^13 km in one day. I think that works out to 6.944 x 10^8 km per second. Bearing in mind they're on a circular path so this involves acceleration, large g forces. The universe as a giant fucking centrifuge. Them aliens must sure be dizzy.

Can someone please calculate the needed gravitational pull(and therefore mass) of the earth to keep the entire rest of the universe locked in orbit at the requisite velocities and distances? I'm guessing we're talking Uber-hyper-supermassive blackhole on a fruitcake scale. Like 1050 solar masses? More?


It can't be done with gravity. You need something like "crystal spheres" to spin the stars around the Earth.

Then you end up with distant objects exceeding the speed of light. A galaxy 1 ly distant would have to orbit along a path of
2 * PI * 365 light days in one day, which is 2,293 C.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Does the Earth spin/rotate about it's axis?

#2418  Postby mraltair » Mar 19, 2012 5:53 pm

Here, I've reposted it a few times but I thought I'd save anyone some time and post the maths so you don't have to do it. :thumbup:

CJ wrote:Let's reverse the question. How would the universe have to behave if the Earth were stationary?

If the Earth were stationary one would still have to account for the movement of the stars around the Earth, which of course they would have to do every 24 hours. They would also be having to orbit the Earth as they turn up in the same place each night, it's not as though stars pass us like they would if we were in a space ship travelling in a straight line.

So a star has to get around the Earth in 24 hours. Firstly the Earth would have to have a gravitational field strong enough to hold the star in orbit (we'll leave that aside for the moment). A star could not travel faster than the speed of light while in orbit around the Earth. So we have a maximum speed that a star could orbit the Earth.

Now lets find out the circumference of a maximum circle made by an object moving at the speed of light orbiting in the equatorial plane. The speed of light is 186,282 miles per second, there are 60 seconds in a minute, 60 minutes in an hour and 24 hours in a day. So the circumference of the orbit of the furthest possible star is 16,094,764,800 miles, this gives a radius of 2,561,561,375 miles. Thus all stars would have to be this distances, or closer, if they were to be able to orbit the Earth in 24 hours and still be travelling at or below the speed of light.

So we have a maximum radius of 2,561,561,375 miles. How long is a light year? It is 5,874,589,152,000 miles. What is the maximum radius as a percentage of a light year? It is 0.0436%. Thus all stars that appear to orbit the Earth in 24 hours must be less than or equal to 0.0436% of a light year away.

As we don't see any stars that do not make an orbit in less or more than 24 hours this means that the universe can only be a maximum 2x0.0436% of a light year across, or approximately 0.09% of a light year. In fact this sphere would have to enclose all the matter in the universe to explain what we see and still obey the laws of relativity.

So which is the more plausible description of what we see? Is it that all we can observe is contained in a non-expanding universe that is rotating at no more than the speed of light and is no more than 0.09% of a light year in diameter. Or is it that we are on a ball of rotating rock. I vote ball of rotating rock.

Here are the maths in detail. circumference = Pi*diameter, so diameter=circumference/Pi and radius=diameter/2

I used Miles (M) to keep the numbers a little bit more manageable and relevant.

Image

Thanks to the person who checked my maths :grin:
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Re: Does the Earth spin/rotate about it's axis?

#2419  Postby GapWim » Mar 19, 2012 6:18 pm

questioner121 wrote:
One thing that doesn't seem quite right is the gravity of the earth. If the gravity of the earth is zero at the centre of the earth and it gets weaker as you go below the surface of the earth, ...


The problem your present clearly stems from a lack of education and/or understanding.
Others gave a reply, here are some external links ... with math n' sh|t.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... thole.html (take special note of the 2nd diagram)
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Would_there_b ... _the_earth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_mass#Astronomy (important to know why the sun cannot orbit the earth)
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=203955 (good answers starting at post 9)


questioner121 wrote:
... how did it come together and stay together given that it was rotating from the beginning and actually rotating faster?


The rotation of the earth was not always the same and it wasn't even a gradual descent from fast spinning to slower spinning. At first the earth did not even had a moon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1-F4lxJPo0 (long video but worth to watch)
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Re: Does the Earth spin/rotate about it's axis?

#2420  Postby campermon » Mar 19, 2012 8:36 pm

GapWim wrote:a YouTube video called "The earth is not rotating - spinning - or moving !!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xokMcO3T0SY
Unfortunately, with every attempt to educate the poster ... the comment gets blocked.


Hi GapWim! :beer:

A long, long time ago, I came to this thread as a handsome, sober, young man (many on these boards can verify this). In my foolishness, I tried to educate Q in the basics of physics. I even posted thought out responses to Q like this one;


campermon wrote:
campermon wrote:
questioner121 wrote:

...I'm thinking on this one. I was thinking about the centripetal force acting on the earth to keep it going around the sun. Should they not affect the hovering object? Would there not be a difference in forces at noon and at midnight? During midday I'm assuming you'd have centripetal force of the sune acting to lift the hovering object higher and at midnight you'd have the centripetal force acting to pull the hovering object down.

I'll have a think about this...going to bed in a minute! ;)


OK....a little bit of breakfast time beer mat physics and look at the centrifugal forces on a mass as it rotates on the planet and orbits the Sun..

Consider a mass at the equator on a rotating Earth. In the diagram we are above a pole and the Earth is rotating clockwise with a tangential speed v at the equator:

Image

In the diagram:
R=distance to Sun from centre of the Earth
r=radius of the Earth
V=tangential speed of orbit around the Sun
v=tangential speed of rotation of the Earth

When the mass is closest to the Sun, we can write the centrifugal force as;

F1=m(V+v)2/(R-r)

and at its furthest;

F2=m(V-v)2/(R+r)

Lets look at the difference in force experienced by the mass at these two points;

ΔF=F1-F2=m(V+v)2/(R-r) - m(V-v)2/(R+r)

Let's make life easy and do the sums for a 1kg mass and using;

V=29800ms-1
v=470ms-1
R=150 000 000 000 000m
r=6 400 000m

We bung the numbers in and get;

ΔF=0.0004N

So, in answer to your question re: the hovering object; the Sun has an extremely small influence.

:)



But, Q defeated me :nono: and left me the beer drinking wreck that you can see from my avatar. :(

SAVE YOURSELF!! Leave this thread and never be tempted to return!

:whine: :whine: :whine:


and Welcome to the forum! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :mrgreen:
Scarlett and Ironclad wrote:Campermon,...a middle aged, middle class, Guardian reading, dad of four, knackered hippy, woolly jumper wearing wino and science teacher.
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