Fundamental Question To All Supernaturalists

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: Fundamental Question To All Supernaturalists

#301  Postby Sityl » Apr 09, 2010 8:58 pm

argumentativealex wrote::coffee: (...reaches for Chambers to look up the word 'euthanasia'...)


Think about the children! (in asia).
Stephen Colbert wrote:Now, like all great theologies, Bill [O'Reilly]'s can be boiled down to one sentence - 'There must be a god, because I don't know how things work.'


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Re: Fundamental Question To All Supernaturalists

#302  Postby argumentativealex » Apr 09, 2010 9:15 pm

argumentativealex wrote:
:coffee: (...reaches for Chambers to look up the word 'euthanasia'...)


Think about the children! (in asia).

:lol:
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Re: Fundamental Question To All Supernaturalists

#303  Postby argumentativealex » Apr 09, 2010 9:17 pm

It's about 'why' the square root of 10 and pi are reasonably close to each other.


:coffee: (...reaches for Chambers to look up the word 'indifference'...)
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Re: Fundamental Question To All Supernaturalists

#304  Postby Sityl » Apr 09, 2010 9:22 pm

argumentativealex wrote:
It's about 'why' the square root of 10 and pi are reasonably close to each other.


:coffee: (...reaches for Chambers to look up the word 'indifference'...)


Yeah, if they were exactly the same, then you could say there was a potential relationship, but you might as well be enthralled by how 24/7 is close to pi. (for 24 hours/day, 7 days/week, the earth goes around in a circle zomg!)
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Re: Fundamental Question To All Supernaturalists

#305  Postby Mirage » Apr 09, 2010 11:44 pm

Why is it, that in order to prop up the postulate that mythology is right, supernaturalists have to engage in all manner of apologetic fabrications, each one more desperate than the last, while all that the rationalists have to do in order to establish the validity of scientific postulates is point to the evidence from the real world?


Maybe because the supernatural means


1. Of or relating to existence
outside
the natural world.
2. Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.
3. Of or relating to a deity.
4. Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous.
5. Of or relating to the miraculous.


So how then could adherents of the supernatural point to the real world? Why, in your opinion should they have to??


Is this question all that fundamental? seriously.
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Re: Fundamental Question To All Supernaturalists

#306  Postby Moonwatcher » Apr 10, 2010 1:31 pm

Mirage wrote:
Why is it, that in order to prop up the postulate that mythology is right, supernaturalists have to engage in all manner of apologetic fabrications, each one more desperate than the last, while all that the rationalists have to do in order to establish the validity of scientific postulates is point to the evidence from the real world?


Maybe because the supernatural means


1. Of or relating to existence
outside
the natural world.
2. Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.
3. Of or relating to a deity.
4. Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous.
5. Of or relating to the miraculous.


So how then could adherents of the supernatural point to the real world? Why, in your opinion should they have to??


Is this question all that fundamental? seriously.


Because most of the supernatural claims are NOT by people who believe in some sort of pure deist God of the Gaps. Most of the supernatural claims are from people who adhere to a particular religion with a specific holy book or books that make claims involving specific actions of their deity or deities in the real world. In many cases, these are grand events that should have left huge amounts of evidence. Yet they don't. Ecologically and sociologically, for example, we know there was no worldwide flood. If the sun stopped in the sky, all the other literate cultures in the world of that time didn't seem to know about it.

So the answer to your two questions are:

Question One: So how then could adherents of the supernatural point to the real world? Because most of them have a deity that allegedly performed specific actions in the real world that should leave evidence and nothing in their holy books says anything about their god removing all the evidence. That's a made up excuse long, long after. Moreover, in many cases, there is specifically evidence that these deities did not perform the actions claimed by their worshipers.

Question 2: Why, in your opinion should they have to?? Because they are the ones making the claims of a specific deity or deities that, according to their own beliefs, performed specific actions in history that should leave evidence but didn't.

Even amongst more liberal types, you generally end up with 'This is allegorical but this isn't' and a hodgepodge of vacuous philosophical desperations to evade any attempt to lock them into facts and evidence, exactly as the OP suggested.
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Re: Fundamental Question To All Supernaturalists

#307  Postby Durro » Apr 11, 2010 10:32 pm


!
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The mathematical derail has been binned. Further posts along these lines will be considered trolling, so please desist.

"Someone", if you have a legitimate mathematical discussion, this is not the forum to do it in. Try our Mathematics Fora instead.

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Re: Fundamental Question To All Supernaturalists

#308  Postby Someone » Apr 11, 2010 11:16 pm

[quote="Durro"][/quote]

Durro: That was not a derail. That was Evidence. What you have done is called 'censorship' unless by binned you mean that I have access to what I wrote.
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Re: Fundamental Question To All Supernaturalists

#309  Postby hackenslash » Apr 11, 2010 11:29 pm

EVidence of what? What does all your guff about numerical coincidence have to do with the 'fundamental question to supernaturalists' detailed in the OP?
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Re: Fundamental Question To All Supernaturalists

#310  Postby THWOTH » Apr 11, 2010 11:33 pm

hackenslash wrote:EVidence of what? What does all your guff about numerical coincidence have to do with the 'fundamental question to supernaturalists' detailed in the OP?

+1
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Re: Fundamental Question To All Supernaturalists

#311  Postby Durro » Apr 11, 2010 11:43 pm

Someone wrote:Durro: That was not a derail. That was Evidence. What you have done is called 'censorship' unless by binned you mean that I have access to what I wrote.


In answer to your comments/questions; yes, no, no, not at this time.

I invite you to review the Forum Users' Agreement and PM me with any queries you may have. As stated earlier, there is a mathematics forum in which you may post your submissions. However, your posts were not relevant to this particular thread. If you wish, if you have not saved copies of your posts, I could relocate your posts into the maths section in a new thread. They do not belong here though, and to continue to post off-topic derails will earn you sanctions for trolling.

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Re: Fundamental Question To All Supernaturalists

#312  Postby Someone » Apr 11, 2010 11:54 pm

Durro wrote:
Someone wrote:Durro: That was not a derail. That was Evidence. What you have done is called 'censorship' unless by binned you mean that I have access to what I wrote.


In answer to your comments/questions; yes, no, no, not at this time.

What you've done here is assert an opinion on something nobody else can now see. Why did you wait three days to cancel out the whole lot of it?

Edit: Oh, yes, please move them to a new thread at the very least (in re the part I missed).


!
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As requested, mathematical discussion has been relocated to this new thread.

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Re: Fundamental Question To All Supernaturalists

#313  Postby Someone » Apr 12, 2010 12:10 am

THWOTH wrote:
hackenslash wrote:EVidence of what? What does all your guff about numerical coincidence have to do with the 'fundamental question to supernaturalists' detailed in the OP?

+1


The question had to do with the OP's experience of no good evidence for anything that reasonable people might choose to call 'supernatural'. An older post of mine in this thread which was not removed (to my knowledge) contained a joke/lie/quasi-prediction on the definition of 'God' ("God told me the definition...") in the 22nd century. The mathematical material of the penultimate post of those removed concerned the prediction/manipulation of past computer programming by a higher intelligence (with material directly connected to the number 365.25, which we recognize as the common approximation to something). Further promised posts were intended to provide evidence concerning the common calendar, but not as a proselytization tool (under the assumption that I can only recognize and Britannica can only be expected to be biased toward the Western experience).
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Re: Fundamental Question To All Supernaturalists

#314  Postby argumentativealex » Apr 12, 2010 8:50 am

THWOTH wrote:
hackenslash wrote:
EVidence of what? What does all your guff about numerical coincidence have to do with the 'fundamental question to supernaturalists' detailed in the OP?

+1

+ another 1
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Re: Fundamental Question To All Supernaturalists

#315  Postby THWOTH » Apr 12, 2010 10:02 am

Someone wrote:
THWOTH wrote:
hackenslash wrote:EVidence of what? What does all your guff about numerical coincidence have to do with the 'fundamental question to supernaturalists' detailed in the OP?

+1


The question had to do with the OP's experience of no good evidence for anything that reasonable people might choose to call 'supernatural'.

And what of the reasonable people who 'might choose to call supernature' a crock of shit? Surely the reasonable is that for which good reasons exists and so there is good reason to believe, and reasonable people are those who accept that good reasons should be offered for believing this, that or the other?

Someone wrote:An older post of mine in this thread which was not removed (to my knowledge) contained a joke/lie/quasi-prediction on the definition of 'God' ("God told me the definition...") in the 22nd century.

I know, that was hilarious.

Someone wrote:The mathematical material of the penultimate post of those removed concerned the prediction/manipulation of past computer programming by a higher intelligence (with material directly connected to the number 365.25, which we recognize as the common approximation to something).

Everything is an approximation to something or other simply because there is lots of something or other rather than nothing at all. If you work hard enough at it I'm sure you can delineate the mathematical relationship between your special number and the length of my colon - yet it is the meaning in, and the impetus to find meaning in, such arbitrary relationships that relates to the topic in hand. Why future aliens? Why not super-intelligent slime mould at the back of my fridge? Why should the unknown be the providence of some unknowable consciousness? Why go to so much trouble to confirm a bias you already have? These and similar questions abound when it comes to the purported inhabitants of imagined realms

Someone wrote:Further promised posts were intended to provide evidence concerning the common calendar, but not as a proselytization tool (under the assumption that I can only recognize and Britannica can only be expected to be biased toward the Western experience).

Blah blah blah. I'm sorry, I mean you no disrespect as a person, I just find that your notions are not respectable. You have just admitted to the totally arbitrary nature of your endeavour so I'll ask you again - why fucking bother in the first place?



edit: an errant 'you'
Last edited by THWOTH on Apr 12, 2010 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fundamental Question To All Supernaturalists

#316  Postby Someone » Apr 12, 2010 1:41 pm

There was nothing arbitrary about the nature of my endeavor. This subject has been moved. Continue with your debate. This looks more and more to me like a thread that the OP abandoned. Why?
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Re: Fundamental Question To All Supernaturalists

#317  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 12, 2010 1:51 pm

It was the biggest load dribble I have ever read. I am so glad Durro clean the mess up. Cheers. :cheers:
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Re: Fundamental Question To All Supernaturalists

#318  Postby hackenslash » Apr 12, 2010 2:51 pm

Someone wrote:There was nothing arbitrary about the nature of my endeavor. This subject has been moved. Continue with your debate. This looks more and more to me like a thread that the OP abandoned. Why?


Never fear. Cali doesn't abandon threads, he just awaits an opportune moment to drop bombs on your ass.


Am I giving away the plot?
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Re: Fundamental Question To All Supernaturalists

#319  Postby Someone » Apr 12, 2010 4:29 pm

hackenslash wrote:
Someone wrote:There was nothing arbitrary about the nature of my endeavor. This subject has been moved. Continue with your debate. This looks more and more to me like a thread that the OP abandoned. Why?


Never fear. Cali doesn't abandon threads, he just awaits an opportune moment to drop bombs on your ass.


Am I giving away the plot?


You mean like the bomb about your knowing special relativity? You mean the bomb after that where he made a classical calculation in a situation where acceleration caused velocity to reach near the speed of light? I'm not awfully worried about anyone at this site dropping a bomb on my ass. Spitting on me, perhaps.
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Re: Fundamental Question To All Supernaturalists

#320  Postby THWOTH » Apr 12, 2010 4:48 pm

Someone wrote:There was nothing arbitrary about the nature of my endeavor. This subject has been moved. Continue with your debate. This looks more and more to me like a thread that the OP abandoned. Why?

Your justifications have been moved, but the topic remains. Of course you find nothing arbitrary about your endeavour, because you derive meaning from it. Yet you alone define the set of conditions for that meaning and delineate your symbology in order to confirm your own pre-existing bias towards a particular outcome. You appear not to 'follow reason wherever it may lead,' but instead already know where you want to end up and then simply have to make up an appropriate method of arriving there; its a self-authenticating mechanism.
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