Genomes as events in a trial

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

Moderators: Calilasseia, DarthHelmet86, Onyx8

Genomes as events in a trial

#1  Postby OrdinaryClay » Jun 06, 2017 5:47 pm

Can any specific genome instance, extinct or extant, be viewed as an event in a sample space?
OrdinaryClay
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 109

United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Genomes as events in a trial

#2  Postby NineBerry » Jun 06, 2017 5:53 pm

No, because evolution is not a random trial, but a mechanism that includes random trials but also non-random elements.
User avatar
NineBerry
RS Donator
 
Posts: 5623
Age: 39
Male

Country: nSk
Print view this post

Re: Genomes as events in a trial

#3  Postby Rumraket » Jun 06, 2017 6:00 pm

OrdinaryClay wrote:Can any specific genome instance, extinct or extant, be viewed as an event in a sample space?


What do you mean by a "genome instance"? What do you mean by "an event"?
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
User avatar
Rumraket
 
Posts: 12595
Age: 36
Male

Denmark (dk)
Print view this post

Re: Genomes as events in a trial

#4  Postby OrdinaryClay » Jun 06, 2017 6:01 pm

First off, biased samples, aka events with non-random elements can be dealt with in sample spaces.

That aside for a moment am I correct in assuming a genome's random elements are the mutations and the non-random elements you are referring to is the selection for fitness?
OrdinaryClay
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 109

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Genomes as events in a trial

#5  Postby OrdinaryClay » Jun 06, 2017 6:02 pm

Rumraket wrote:
OrdinaryClay wrote:Can any specific genome instance, extinct or extant, be viewed as an event in a sample space?


What do you mean by a "genome instance"? What do you mean by "an event"?

The same definition used in any college text book.
OrdinaryClay
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 109

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Genomes as events in a trial

#6  Postby Rumraket » Jun 06, 2017 6:10 pm

OrdinaryClay wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
OrdinaryClay wrote:Can any specific genome instance, extinct or extant, be viewed as an event in a sample space?


What do you mean by a "genome instance"? What do you mean by "an event"?

The same definition used in any college text book.

I have college text books in genetics, evolutionary biology, cell biology, and biochemistry, and I have read them. Neither terms ring any bells in the context of the question you ask.

Could you quote, or link some definitions? Or just define them?
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
User avatar
Rumraket
 
Posts: 12595
Age: 36
Male

Denmark (dk)
Print view this post

Re: Genomes as events in a trial

#7  Postby NineBerry » Jun 06, 2017 6:19 pm

There are numerous random and non-random mechanisms that work together in lockstep to create individual genomes. Just think about your own genome. It is a combination of the genomes of your parents. Think about everything that was involved in your parents having had sex at a certain point of time.
User avatar
NineBerry
RS Donator
 
Posts: 5623
Age: 39
Male

Country: nSk
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Genomes as events in a trial

#8  Postby OrdinaryClay » Jun 06, 2017 6:30 pm

Rumraket wrote:
OrdinaryClay wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
OrdinaryClay wrote:Can any specific genome instance, extinct or extant, be viewed as an event in a sample space?


What do you mean by a "genome instance"? What do you mean by "an event"?

The same definition used in any college text book.

I have college text books in genetics, evolutionary biology, cell biology, and biochemistry, and I have read them. Neither terms ring any bells in the context of the question you ask.

Could you quote, or link some definitions? Or just define them?

https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/hgp/genome
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Event.html
OrdinaryClay
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 109

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Genomes as events in a trial

#9  Postby Rumraket » Jun 06, 2017 6:33 pm

Thank you, now your question makes sense. The answer is yes, of course.
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
User avatar
Rumraket
 
Posts: 12595
Age: 36
Male

Denmark (dk)
Print view this post

Re: Genomes as events in a trial

#10  Postby OrdinaryClay » Jun 06, 2017 6:38 pm

NineBerry wrote:No, because evolution is not a random trial, but a mechanism that includes random trials but also non-random elements.

Okay, so we have agreed there are random and non random components defining why a genome is what it is. This does not prevent a genome instance from being viewed as an event in a sample space. I've said nothing about the probability function behind the sample space. How a genome is what it is will define the probability distribution behind the events in the space.
OrdinaryClay
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 109

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Genomes as events in a trial

#11  Postby Rumraket » Jun 06, 2017 6:49 pm

The most contributing factor to any particular genetic sequence, is the one it was copied from at cell division. Any particular nucleotide in the average genome sequence, was caused to be what it is something like 99.99999999% of the time (at least going by the average human pr nucleotide substitution rate) by the fact that it was complementary to another nucleotide when that nucleotide was copied at replication.

If the ancestor sequence had an A, the descendant will have an A there too almost 100% of the time. The exceptions are mutations. The probability that any particular nucleotide will be different is basically the probability of mutation, which comes in several different forms. Arlin Stoltzfus has a great post on that here: http://www.molevol.org/the-range-of-rates-for-different-genetic-types-of-mutations/
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
User avatar
Rumraket
 
Posts: 12595
Age: 36
Male

Denmark (dk)
Print view this post

Re: Genomes as events in a trial

#12  Postby OrdinaryClay » Jun 06, 2017 7:07 pm

rumraket, good info and I'll go there in a minute.

Second observation, which to me seems completely non-controversial whether you are a materialist or not. The sample space over the entire history of life on the earth is staggeringly enormous (yes I'm completely on board with the 3.8 BY give or take trajectory of life). No? Even if you restrict this set to chordates, which given my next points we pretty much have to, the set is huge.

So here is my question and where I'm positive there will great gnashing of teeth ... Does this not give evolutionary biologists pause, at least ones with statistical training, when you look at that space and see only one species that has mapped it's own genome. For a materialists what is the explanation they use for why it happened just once? Just "shit happens"?
OrdinaryClay
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 109

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Genomes as events in a trial

#13  Postby Rumraket » Jun 06, 2017 7:11 pm

OrdinaryClay wrote:rumraket, good info and I'll go there in a minute.

Second observation, which to me seems completely non-controversial whether you are a materialist or not. The sample space over the entire history of life on the earth is staggeringly enormous (yes I'm completely on board with the 3.8 BY give or take trajectory of life). No?

Sure, the space of potential, probably never realized genomic sequences, is enormous. Much greater than the sampled one.

OrdinaryClay wrote:So here is my question and where I'm positive there will great gnashing of teeth ... Does this not give evolutionary biologists pause,

I don't think so. I'm not an evolutionary biologist, so I can only answer for myself. No. Not in the least. Why should it?

OrdinaryClay wrote:For a materialists what is the explanation they use for why it happened just once? Just "shit happens"?

The explanation for why what in particular just happened once? I'm not sure I understand the question.
"Nullius in verba" - Take nobody's word for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius_in_verba
User avatar
Rumraket
 
Posts: 12595
Age: 36
Male

Denmark (dk)
Print view this post

Re: Genomes as events in a trial

#14  Postby NineBerry » Jun 06, 2017 7:12 pm

Oh dear. Just as I had expected.
User avatar
NineBerry
RS Donator
 
Posts: 5623
Age: 39
Male

Country: nSk
Print view this post

Re: Genomes as events in a trial

#15  Postby LucidFlight » Jun 06, 2017 7:17 pm

:popcorn:
OFFICIAL MEMBER: QUANTUM CONSTRUCTOR CONSCIOUSNESS QUALIA KOALA COLLECTIVE.
User avatar
LucidFlight
RS Donator
 
Name: Bob Bobson
Posts: 9062
Male

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: Genomes as events in a trial

#16  Postby OrdinaryClay » Jun 06, 2017 7:18 pm

NineBerry wrote:Oh dear. Just as I had expected.

You're a real sluth. Yes, I'm a Christian as I've said many times. No secrets. The discussion is a valid discussion whether your a materialist or not. Atheist Physicists admit openly and engage in actual conversations about why the universe displays such oddities as apparently tuned values. They don't believe they are actually tuned, but yet they engage the discussion because they admit there is something noteworthy to be discussed in the subject.
OrdinaryClay
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 109

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Genomes as events in a trial

#17  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 06, 2017 7:20 pm

OrdinaryClay wrote:Does this not give evolutionary biologists pause, at least ones with statistical training, when you look at that space and see only one species that has mapped it's own genome.


Wait. You're using human beings' opinions of themselves as some kind of yardstick for 'something unusual'. Get a second opinion. Then another. When you have an adequate sampling of species with self-opinions, then you can talk about 'unusual'. This means you shouldn't restrict yourself to considering life forms you find only on this planet.

What I'm saying is that your question is an entirely vacuous opinion based on limited data.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Ivar Poäng
Posts: 24317
Age: 6
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Re: Genomes as events in a trial

#18  Postby OrdinaryClay » Jun 06, 2017 7:24 pm

Rumraket wrote:
OrdinaryClay wrote:rumraket, good info and I'll go there in a minute.

Second observation, which to me seems completely non-controversial whether you are a materialist or not. The sample space over the entire history of life on the earth is staggeringly enormous (yes I'm completely on board with the 3.8 BY give or take trajectory of life). No?

Sure, the space of potential, probably never realized genomic sequences, is enormous. Much greater than the sampled one.

What is an unrealized genomic sequence? Still borne?


OrdinaryClay wrote:So here is my question and where I'm positive there will great gnashing of teeth ... Does this not give evolutionary biologists pause,

I don't think so. I'm not an evolutionary biologist, so I can only answer for myself. No. Not in the least. Why should it?

OrdinaryClay wrote:For a materialists what is the explanation they use for why it happened just once? Just "shit happens"?

The explanation for why what in particular just happened once? I'm not sure I understand the question.

What: An intellectual achievement such as mapping the genome of it's own species.

Do you think convergent evolution is common or rare?
OrdinaryClay
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 109

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Genomes as events in a trial

#19  Postby OrdinaryClay » Jun 06, 2017 7:26 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
OrdinaryClay wrote:Does this not give evolutionary biologists pause, at least ones with statistical training, when you look at that space and see only one species that has mapped it's own genome.


Wait. You're using human beings' opinions of themselves as some kind of yardstick for 'something unusual'. Get a second opinion. Then another. When you have an adequate sampling of species with self-opinions, then you can talk about 'unusual'. This means you shouldn't restrict yourself to considering life forms you find only on this planet.

What I'm saying is that your question is an entirely vacuous opinion based on limited data.

Oh yes, the "can't define unique or special" canard. Now that's vacuous.

Probability proves you wrong.
OrdinaryClay
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 109

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Genomes as events in a trial

#20  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 06, 2017 7:29 pm

OrdinaryClay wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
OrdinaryClay wrote:Does this not give evolutionary biologists pause, at least ones with statistical training, when you look at that space and see only one species that has mapped it's own genome.


Wait. You're using human beings' opinions of themselves as some kind of yardstick for 'something unusual'. Get a second opinion. Then another. When you have an adequate sampling of species with self-opinions, then you can talk about 'unusual'. This means you shouldn't restrict yourself to considering life forms you find only on this planet.

What I'm saying is that your question is an entirely vacuous opinion based on limited data.

Oh yes, the "can't define unique or special" canard. Now that's vacuous.

Probability proves you wrong.


What do you know about sample spaces, OrdinaryClay? Nothing, that's what's evident on the face of your bullshit.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Ivar Poäng
Posts: 24317
Age: 6
Male

Country: The Heartland
Mongolia (mn)
Print view this post

Next

Return to Creationism

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest

cron