How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

Spin-off from "Dialog on 'Creationists read this' "

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2941  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 11, 2019 5:43 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
What is your area of expertise Cito?


Give me your full legal name and home address, and I'll post my CV to you and cover all shipping costs. Include your bank account and Paypal details and I'll post it to you at your expense.


The point is that unless you yourself are a biologist, you don't have any more standing to argue against creationism than I do, to argue for it.


You've been asked several times whether you subscribe to the notion that the study of living things is somehow divorced from the rest of science. That divorcing may involve an old-fashioned woo-construct called vitalism.

On the other hand, from an inspection of your commentary here, you've given no evidence that you know how to read any scientific literature at all, let alone biology. I can read what biologists write, and I can understand it in terms of the physics and chemistry and scientific methodology I am trained to use; I can also read the florid crap you write; you've even admitted that you lack competence in physical sciences, but somehow you feel fit to comment on biology. Why is that? Vitalism?

And shut the fuck up about standing; that's the kind of thinking that inspires charlatans to perpetrate scientific hoases in order to be invited to join some society or other. It's your training and natural ability that are in question; as I understand it, you are trained in the use of surveying equipment, and you've given no evidence you're any good at that, either. You are going to be judged on what you actually write.

Jayjay4547 wrote:I said a much more interesting thing...


There you go again, JJ, purporting to grade your own work. You know how that's going to go.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2942  Postby Scot Dutchy » Feb 11, 2019 10:27 am

Why do you guys give him oxygen?
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2943  Postby Alan B » Feb 11, 2019 12:16 pm

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Alan B wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:What is your area of expertise Cito?

It's called 'Thinking'. Not 'Regurgitation'.


Hi Alan B, post something I have regurgitated and we can take it from there.

Of course. The continued regurgitation that atheism is a 'belief' and is an 'Ideology', when it is not.

You cannot 'take it from there', because there is no argument.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2944  Postby Jayjay4547 » Feb 12, 2019 6:19 am

Alan B wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:
Alan B wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:What is your area of expertise Cito?

It's called 'Thinking'. Not 'Regurgitation'.


Hi Alan B, post something I have regurgitated and we can take it from there.

Of course. The continued regurgitation that atheism is a 'belief' and is an 'Ideology', when it is not.

You cannot 'take it from there', because there is no argument.


According to Google the main meaning of "regurgitate" when applied to information, is to "repeat (information) without analysing or comprehending it." If you meant that, it would be at least something concrete and I could call you on it. You are just parroting that atheism has no ideology and to claim it does, is like vomiting. That's pretty doctrinaire.

Note that I'm not so much just flatly saying there is such an ideology, I'm trying to explore it, which amounts to showing by example.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2945  Postby theropod » Feb 12, 2019 6:43 am

Bullshit lies right there.

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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2946  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 12, 2019 7:33 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:You are just parroting that atheism has no ideology and to claim it does, is like vomiting. That's pretty doctrinaire.

Note that I'm not so much just flatly saying there is such an ideology, I'm trying to explore it, which amounts to showing by example.


You can't explore a territory you haven't established. You can speculate about it, the way the ancients did about Atlantis, and cry in your beer. What you've established so far is that you are not being taken seriously as a 'scientist', or even as a 'critical theorist'. Social Text has already been burned by Alan Sokal, so don't try another hoax like that.

"Atheist ideology" is a story you made up to soothe yourself over the fact that you can't get a hearing for your crackpot theory, and is tautologically related to your personal frustrations. You dare not even approach academic scientists with such stuff. Cry me a river. Where have you submitted your manuscript for publication? Marvel Comics? You should try that, mainly because they deal in "marvels".

Academic paleontologists are much too busy to entertain crackpot theories outside office hours for their classes on campus. They do so patiently for students who come to class prepared only with their religion as a source of questions, to the tune of a minute or two of tea and sympathy. That's why you're out here, yammering anonymously in an internet chatroom.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2947  Postby Hermit » Feb 12, 2019 9:17 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:Note that I'm not so much just flatly saying there is such an ideology, I'm trying to explore it, which amounts to showing by example.

A good start would be to define 'atheist ideology'. If you've already done that, please reiterate it. I am not going to comb through 2500 posts.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2948  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 12, 2019 9:22 am

Hermit wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:Note that I'm not so much just flatly saying there is such an ideology, I'm trying to explore it, which amounts to showing by example.

A good start would be to define 'atheist ideology'. If you've already done that, please reiterate it. I am not going to comb through 2500 posts.


The way I take it, it's an attitude that will not entertain the stipulation "a miracle occurs", or "a miracle is manifest".

I really do not know what else JJ would have in mind. Go figure.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2949  Postby Alan B » Feb 14, 2019 11:00 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:According to Google the main meaning of "regurgitate" when applied to information, is to "repeat (information) without analysing or comprehending it." If you meant that, it would be at least something concrete and I could call you on it. You are just parroting that atheism has no ideology and to claim it does, is like vomiting. That's pretty doctrinaire.
I used 'regurgitate' deliberately - and you can 'call me on it' as much as you like, er, so what?

Note that I'm not so much just flatly saying there is such an ideology, I'm trying to explore it,
Which is like exploring a defined 'nothing' hoping to find 'something'. Fruitless.

which amounts to showing by example.
What examples?

Please list...
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2950  Postby Alan B » Feb 14, 2019 11:04 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:Why do you guys give him oxygen?

Oxygen bottle turned OFF.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2951  Postby Jayjay4547 » Feb 14, 2019 12:06 pm

Hermit wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:Note that I'm not so much just flatly saying there is such an ideology, I'm trying to explore it, which amounts to showing by example.

A good start would be to define 'atheist ideology'. If you've already done that, please reiterate it. I am not going to comb through 2500 posts.


I have obeyed similar asks many times only to find them used as a way to block what I was trying to describe, which was the effects of that ideology. Like I said, I started by noting the effects and then looked for a common cause. A bit like finding that the radial velocities of stars in galaxies aren't behaving as expected, then hypothesizing dark matter.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2952  Postby Scot Dutchy » Feb 14, 2019 12:08 pm

You do talk a load of crap.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2953  Postby Hermit » Feb 14, 2019 12:25 pm

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:Note that I'm not so much just flatly saying there is such an ideology, I'm trying to explore it, which amounts to showing by example.

A good start would be to define 'atheist ideology'. If you've already done that, please reiterate it. I am not going to comb through 2500 posts.

I have obeyed similar asks many times only to find them used as a way to block what I was trying to describe, which was the effects of that ideology.

In short, you decline my request. I hope you appreciate how that creates an insurmountable hurdle for me to discuss how atheist ideology messed up the human origin story with you.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2954  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 14, 2019 1:46 pm

Jayjay4547 wrote:the radial velocities of stars in galaxies aren't behaving as expected


Hmmm. Radial velocities. Yes, JJ, you sure do know your celestial mechanics. My advice: Stick to surveying the landscape.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2955  Postby Scot Dutchy » Feb 14, 2019 3:16 pm

The universe is a total mystery to theists. None of their magical books cover it. The earth never goes around the sun in any of them. No mention of gravity. How did they think they all stayed up there. Sticky tape?
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2956  Postby Jayjay4547 » Feb 14, 2019 5:13 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:the radial velocities of stars in galaxies aren't behaving as expected


Hmmm. Radial velocities. Yes, JJ, you sure do know your celestial mechanics. My advice: Stick to surveying the landscape.

You sneer at whatever you weren't familiar with before. Take a look at the Wikipedia entry on Galaxy Rotation Curve

"The rotation curve of a disc galaxy (also called a velocity curve) is a plot of the orbital speeds of visible stars or gas in that galaxy versus their radial distance from that galaxy's centre. It is typically rendered graphically as a plot, and the data observed from each side of a spiral galaxy are generally asymmetric, so that data from each side are averaged to create the curve. A significant discrepancy exists between the experimental curves observed, and a curve derived from theory. The theory of dark matter is currently postulated to account for the variance"
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2957  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 14, 2019 5:55 pm

Jayjay4547 wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:the radial velocities of stars in galaxies aren't behaving as expected


Hmmm. Radial velocities. Yes, JJ, you sure do know your celestial mechanics. My advice: Stick to surveying the landscape.

You sneer at whatever you weren't familiar with before. Take a look at the Wikipedia entry on Galaxy Rotation Curve

"The rotation curve of a disc galaxy (also called a velocity curve) is a plot of the orbital speeds of visible stars or gas in that galaxy versus their radial distance from that galaxy's centre. It is typically rendered graphically as a plot, and the data observed from each side of a spiral galaxy are generally asymmetric, so that data from each side are averaged to create the curve. A significant discrepancy exists between the experimental curves observed, and a curve derived from theory. The theory of dark matter is currently postulated to account for the variance"


Radial velocities are not significant galactic rotation cuves, and are not what you saw plotted on that wiki page. What the rotation curve describes is the radial distribution of orbital velocities of objects around the center of a galaxy. What has been noted is that the distribution shape varies from what would be expected by calculating the velocities based on the luminous matter in the galaxy. I've set in bold font the relevant words from the wiki article, so you can keep track of them.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2958  Postby Jayjay4547 » Feb 15, 2019 5:47 am

Sure Cito, radial distribution of orbital velocites. It was their unexpected nature that led to hypothesizing dark matter. In the same way, atheist ideology can be mapped from strangenesses in the human origin narrative.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2959  Postby Cito di Pense » Feb 15, 2019 8:18 am

Jayjay4547 wrote:Sure Cito, radial distribution of orbital velocites. It was their unexpected nature that led to hypothesizing dark matter. In the same way, atheist ideology can be mapped from strangenesses in the human origin narrative.


This is what you wrote, JJ:

Jayjay4547 wrote:finding that the radial velocities of stars in galaxies aren't behaving as expected


I think by this point, you know what you're talking about, but what you wrote initially was a careless mistake, because the term "radial velocity" by itself has its own significance and the radial velocities of objects in elliptical orbits are not significant in the observations that led to the hypothesis of dark matter. Such imprecision (to be charitable) is not well-tolerated in scientific discussion.

Now, for your main point, or pint, which I would instead recommend for you: Your term "strangeness" is not as well-defined as "radial velocity" (or, rather, "orbital velocity", or "velocity distribution"). In fact, it sounds rather like some more bullshit you just made up on the spot, which you can't get away with in celestial mechanics. You can't really get away with it in paleontology, either, but you try.

But since you seem inclined, let's talk also about your use of "unexpected". In the dark matter hypothesis, the variance between observed velocity distribution and that expected from observations of luminous matter does not mean that the radial velocity distribution just pops out of nowhere, like your theories of human evolution. The model based on observations of luminous matter is, you got it, only a model, and the observations are at variance with it. It's a model based on specific considerations, rather than some shit that somebody just made up, like "strangeness". I'd venture the opinion that your obsession with what you call 'atheist ideology' is strange, but from your perspective, it probably isn't. To avoid loaded terminology, we could use the word personal instead of strange; only you know whether the amount of time and effort you've spent on atheist ideology is based on a sincere desire on your part to resolve differences.

In the case of your stories about human evolution, what's your 'model', against which you say the observations are at variance? You got it: "And then, a miracle happens." That's your dumbass fucking 'model'. You calculate what you would like to see, and then say that the observations are at variance with what you would like to see. Easy-peasy.
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: How atheist ideology messed up the human origin story

#2960  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Feb 15, 2019 9:06 am

Hermit wrote:
Jayjay4547 wrote:Note that I'm not so much just flatly saying there is such an ideology, I'm trying to explore it, which amounts to showing by example.

A good start would be to define 'atheist ideology'. If you've already done that, please reiterate it. I am not going to comb through 2500 posts.

Even after repeated requests by myself and others, Jayjay continues to fail to provide a rigorous definition.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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